Phantom in the command line interface

[BluPhoenix]

Well it can't be worse than the manga.

low-tier bait

Sam generally has good taste but keep in mind he also liked Spectre.

spectre isn't the best craig bond by a long shot but it's no quantum of solace

i wonder if The Cinematic Experience™ is on the side of ghost in the shell starring scarlett johannson. like on 2nd viewing watching it at home with your daki will have a sobering effect when it's no longer on the silver screen. i know it happened to a lot of people who initially liked suicide squad - although to GITS' credit making a movie as bad as that would take a monumental domino effect of utter failures. there's at least some soul behind this movie, even if it was doomed to be in the shadow of its predecessors from the start.

i think the cinematic experience really gives a film a honeymoon period, it can typically take your brain out of the moment, when it's bombarding you with spectacle. christopher nolan's films are pretty class examples of that, with mixed results- some times it works (inception), some times it doesnt (interstellar). part of that may have to do with the themes/ level of involvement the viewer has with the film's plot/characters.

a problem with these east-to-west remakes is the same problem that most videogame adaptations have in that the people making them have no understanding of the source material- which is pretty baffling considering that ghost in the shell served as a catalyst for many other western scifi stories

guess it all depends on who's in charge of what. maybe one day they both can benefit from a similar treatment marvel's been getting

[Bamyasi]

Well it can't be worse than the manga.

low-tier bait

Koukaku Kidoutai is a fantastic artbook and blueprint for better adaptations but the entire story is delivered through the most overwrought expository dialogue, bad even by 80s standards from what I've read. It's like he didn't know how to tell this story in pictures and so had to write an entire PKD novel over them. I just want to look at the goddamn pictures. They're a better conduit for complex philosophical themes in visual media and I think most readers would be capable of picking them out without him having to bury the gorgeous art under their direct, clumsy communication. All the adaptations were better at that I think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ6hkzKVYQg

The whole marriage/copulation metaphor is far more vivid here (whereas in the manga it's explicitly stated and handwaved), and with more adeptly deployed tension/pathos. And so are all the problems in SAC. I'd argue even Innocence and Arise had better storytelling honestly. It never felt like the images were at war with the text. But again, this could be mostly due to Dark Horse's translation job here.

Also does anyone think it's weird ScarJew was in an equally whitewashed movie about Japan 14 years ago?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXjObmziEk

[rtil]

lost in translation wasn't really about japan, it just happened to take place in japan. but it's kind of interesting i suppose. tbh i forgot she was the lead actress in that.

i think the cinematic experience really gives a film a honeymoon period, it can typically take your brain out of the moment, when it's bombarding you with spectacle.

the thing is that GITS doesn't even look pretty to me, at least from the trailer. maybe it's just a shitty trailer, but to me the environments look like the most uninspired and generic possible cyberpunk. hollywood is really good at diluting things i guess

[Bamyasi]

Oh yeah by "about" I just meant "taking place in." Though I guess Oshii's version took place somewhere resembling Hong Kong.

I also agree with Blu et tu about The Cinematic Experience™ and it's elevation of otherwise mediocre productions.

Also:

[rtil]

[soup]

damn she strong she fearless wish ghost in the shell was my dad

[Ayyyyy]

how would u feel if ur movie lost to boss baby
would u kill yourself?

[Yvonne]

[soup]

yeh theres no real choice here death is the only option

[Bamyasi]

More like @Ghost in the Shill.

I'm not sure what "subtler elements" Sam thought were better communicated here, because conceptually this flick was very different from the '95 adaptation (it's really an amalgamation of every previous version with most of what made them special lost in translation). I read Ghost in the Shell '95 as primarily being a tragic romance between an artificial intelligence with agency but no body (2501), and an organic intelligence with a body but no agency (Motoko), with an impotent Batou somewhere in there to complete the triangle. The 25"7"1 in the film is merely a previous iteration of Kusanagi, which kind of dispels all the mysticism and spirituality of a ghost-like cloud consciousness birthing itself from the internet to lust after its missing half (organic compound).

I wasn't offended by it for the first hour (I even liked it to an extent, 6-7/10 first hour 👏👏👏), but then it spends its remaining runtime answering questions noone curr about (just who is this "Mira Killian???" Are her memories real or fake? Is she a victim of Honky electronics?) because they were answered better in a single episode of 2nd GIG, Blade Runner, and Dark City (the latter two I'd argue this flick shares many more genes with than the original film). Also no idea how people could possibly accuse this flick of whitewashing I mean Mira Killian was literally a runaway Japanese teenager named "Motoko Kusanagi" played by Kaori Yamamoto before being kidnapped by Hanka robotics corporation and put in the body of a Hollywood Celebrity Jewess. C'mon guys! No Orientalism here!

That said it does look very good and it's nice to see glitch effects finally appearing in Hollywood schlockbusters. The casting, makeup and design are all there at it was nice to see Beat Takeshi playing a non-English speaking noncharacter. ScarJo is pretty I guess and she and Pilou Asbæk both look the part, surprisingly. Its problems and attributes are far more interesting than any equally Globalized shitty MCU movie I've seen, if not quite as entertaining as X-Men: First Class and the new GOTG might be. The action scenes were somewhat well choreographed, and the script was taut if retarded, but but neither the kinetics or the dialogue are what made the original so memorable and penetrative. It had some of the heart but none of the art I expect from the brand.

Too much tell, not enough show.

Dare I say it?

Too much Shell, not enough Ghost.

[Yvonne]

Dare I say it?

No.

Too much Shell, not enough Toast.

Poor Benedict Hollandaise sauce.

[Bamyasi]

Ban Yvonne.

[Yvonne]

Scarlett was in Lucy and I watched the thing. Limitless plot driven but a weird, abrupt unsatisfactory ending. So she's in both films portraying a titanium intellect-robot.

I really like her in The Nanny Diaries.

[Bamyasi]

No yes Lucy was a fair sight worse than this. I'd argue Her and Under the Skin were too. The difference being those had very little to live up to, but they still failed. In this movies defense it could have been a faithful populist remake had it stuck to the original script instead of copping scenes, shots and concepts that were just so flaccid out of context.

At the very least it's given us an excuse to revisit and celebrate Kamiyama and Oshii's versions.

Edit: Oh and funnily enough Lucy also happened to have cast a great Asian actor in a passive role.

Ghost World and The Man Who Wasn't There are her best I think.

[rtil]

Too much tell, not enough show.

1995 GITS has this problem too, but i think it gets a pass because of when and where it came from. the ideas that came from it were compelling and groundbreaking. it revolutionized sci-fi. 20 years down the line and they still can't fix this problem, not the same story.

[Bamyasi]

I'd strongly argue most of the relevant information in '95 is communicated through images, which is why it will endure when all effects driven summer blockbusters and most other anime have faded to the obscure annals of junk culture.

Ghost in the Shell is often praised for the wrong reasons. Ghost in the Shell is not a masterpiece of film because it is a masterpiece of writing but because it is a masterpiece of film. The dialogue is fairly simple, even Motoko and 2501 discussing the nature of humanity never becomes too complex. Too many people focus on the philosophical nature of the dialogue and miss the essence of the film.

This film relies on the credibility of a single scene in the climax and the purpose of the movie up to this point has been to sell this moment to the viewer. Near the film's end, Motoko and 2501 give these lines to one another, shortly after 2501 reveals his plan to merge the two of them into a new living consciousness.

'Why did you pick me?'

'Because we are more alike than you realise.'

This is the critical moment. If the film hasn't done enough to reinforce this concept, it will seem as if 2501 has picked Motoko for his plan, because she is the protagonist, because it is what the plot demanded and it will seem forced. If the film tries to reinforce this concept too powerfully in the scenes leading up to it, then it risks giving away and ending and spoiling the entire production. If the film waits until after this line is given to preserve the surprise and then tries to explain the revelation, it will also feel forced, albeit with an attempted explanation. Instead Oshii spends the entire film making parallels between the two characters, but always subliminally.

'Why did you transfer a guy like me from the police force?'

'Because we need a guy like you. Except for the slight brain augmentation, your body's almost completely human...No matter how excellent, identical systems have faults. Overspecialize and you breed in weakness'

~~~

'But you can leave a copy of yourself.'

'There is a possibility that a single virus could destroy an entire set of systems and copies do not give rise to variety and originality.'

This is how Motoko thinks about her team. It has a better chance of survival with a human variable. She has a better chance of survival with a human variable. Project 2501 thinks in the same way. He wants to merge with Motoko because he thinks the human variable will increase his chances of survival and the survival of his virtual offspring. In this way Oshii directly and intentionally mirrors the thought processes of Motoko and 2501.



In each of the scenes pictured, Motoko and 2501 give a speech on humanity. The camera is pointed directly at them. Their face is flat and expressionless but at the height of the speech becomes more expressive. It is also worth noting that in the first scene 2501 is watching Motoko give her speech and that in the second scene Motoko watches 2501 give his.

Both Motoko and 2501 share problems of individuality and identity. Both of the character's have their humanity doubted and both of them are presented with the possibility of being copied. Motoko , after doubting whether she really has a human brain, comes across a cybernetic body exactly like hers and it is never made clear to the audience whether this is an automaton or a human.

The title screen shows the words 'Ghost in the Shell' formed by many tiny pieces coming together. The movement stops. When a rough image is built, the words are then smoothed out. This subtly hints at  the creation of Motoko's body the audience is about to witness. When Motoko's body is being created the chanting music is a Japanese wedding song setting up the concept of the merge from the beginning of the film.

Just before the merge 2501 speaks out of Motoko's mouth. This is the culmination of their similarity and elegantly directs the audience to merge Motoko and 2501 before it has even taken place.

The events of the film are shot and presented to the audience in the same way that its two pivotal characters view the world around them. It is shot in a way which reinforces their personalities and helps characterize them. This takes full advantage of the medium of film.

Both Motoko and 2501 are characterized as god-like. They are the absolute best; skilled, determined and collected in the face of danger. It is for this reason that they take on an indifferent tone. They are above everything. They are cold and direct. Similarly, the film is cold and direct about the aspects typical of an action movie. From the opening the audience is presented with violence, nudity, hacking, car chases and explosions and all of it is presented indifferently.  Motoko jumps away from a background explosion without a sound effect or matched-up piece of music. The film has a loud, long and clear soundtrack and it is clearly a conscious choice to present these action-typical scenes with silence.

The first time Motoko is shown she sits atop a tall building, overlooking the busy city of Niihama below her. She is processing traffic through her cyberbrain, Batou contacts her and is surprised that she is able to discern his message amongst the chatter of the city. She disconnects the wires from her neck, stands and prepares for an assassination. This scene captures the essence of Motoko's character: skillful, indifferent, god-like. She is looking down at the rest of us. This continues  throughout the film; Motoko is constantly presented as being above everything else in her scenes. Watching the city. Chasing the ghost-hacked man from the rooftops. Listening to 2501 on the balcony.

When Motoko awakens to her new body, she reacts with a combination of apathy and distaste. Motoko and her apartment are silhouetted in this scene stressing the detachment Motoko feels to the world.  Both 2501 and Motoko have a habit of not caring about about whether they are naked or not in front of others, despite Batou's attempts at covering Motoko with his jacket. They both seem to think that their bodies do not matter; they have transcended the physical form, both literally and philosophically.

The entire film reinforces its critical moment with a finesse rarely seen in cinema. It does this whilst also influencing the audience's emotions to match those of its protagonists. In short,  'Ghost in the Shell' is a masterpiece of film.

Nothing about the dialogue in Ghost in the Shell '95 would lead you to read it as a tragedy, romance, or ghost story, but almost everything about the themes and the way its presented communicate this. I think it's the saddest movie ever made without any of the manipulative storytelling you'd see from a lesser director, and that is why it will never be topped by one.

[rtil]

i don't disagree, but there is still a lot of exposition to digest in ghost in the shell. what is going on while the exposition is happening is relevant and interesting, though.

[SrsSam77]

denial about how flaming TitS the new GitS is

It's okay we were all like you at one point but then dreamworks gave us a free set of bionic eyes and a permanent smirk

[BluPhoenix]

i like the manga more than the original film because despite its occasionally dense exposition/blunt themes, it tells a much more compelling and interesting story. i've never really seen the original film through rose-tinted glasses and i usually say that from a filmmaking perspective, akira is more deserving of its reputation- even if it has the same problem i have with gits as far as adaptations go

uh anyways this new film never looked very interesting. some of the designs are fuck-ugly and the 'twist' of the story sounds incredibly bland. if the film really is as divisive as people make it out to be and not just outright shit, maybe i'll go see it with sef

once i can tear myself away from p5 anyways

[Bamyasi]

i don't disagree, but there is still a lot of exposition to digest in ghost in the shell. what is going on while the exposition is happening is relevant and interesting, though.

Fair enough. I'd still argue the exposition is a relatively small part of why the movie's so special.

denial about how flaming TitS the new GitS is

It's okay we were all like you at one point but then dreamworks gave us a free set of bionic eyes and a permanent smirk

Not an argument.

i like the manga more than the original film because despite its occasionally dense exposition/blunt themes, it tells a much more compelling and interesting story.

What is the story though?

i've never really seen the original film through rose-tinted glasses and i usually say that from a filmmaking perspective, akira is more deserving of its reputation- even if it has the same problem i have with gits as far as adaptations go

What problem specifically? I'll be completely honest when I first read/watched GitS in its original incarnations I didn't fully understand it. The difference was that upon revisiting the film about 2 months ago I found infinitely more to return to, whereas the manga I still couldn't sum up if I tried. Neither of them I personally see through rose-tinted glasses.

I think the difference between GitS and Akira is that the former was edited down to coherency by someone other than the original creator, and Akira's source material had far less flavor-text anyway. If Masamune Shirow had directed the Ghost in the Shell movie it would have probably ended up more like the Tank Police or Appleseed OVAs, and less like GitS '95, SAC or Black Magic M-66 (which also took liberties with its source material in order to tell a simpler and more coherent story).

Shirow is a great artist, but his work is too lost in its own noosphere to tell a good story, which is about bodies and actions first and ideas second.