richard dawkins wants to arrest the pope

[creamcorn]

[spoiler]just sayinthis thread is great, it makes want to look more into science and religion, i hope ill become a better and more informed person after my 'research'[/spoiler]<coolstorybro

[rtil]

at what its become? the religion is still the same, its the great majority of the people that have become that which youre probably referring to (not so intelligent anymore) but they dont represent the religion they represent a big society and there is a difference

the book might be the same, but the way people interpret it is different. this is the problem with religion in modern day society - you have these ancient books written to an ancient world, and you try to apply them to a global, 21st century world and look at what happens. i have not read the qu'ran, but i have read the bible, and if they are similar in any way, they are not acceptable handbooks for modern day societies and should be treated like fairy tales instead of god's word.

it's human nature to look for answers and question things, but religious people don't question the existence of god which to me is really weird.

because questioning the existence of their god shatters their view on everything. having the "faith of a child" is a cornerstone to solidifying your ignorance in religion.

[lenko]

The Bible to me seems more like a set of morals than anything else. It's chock full of metaphors and, well STORIES which idiots then took as stone cold fact instead of just interpreting the messages in the stories.

And then you get to the middle ages with the royals etc. using the book's messages (particularly the idea of Hell) to spread fear and control these poor, stupid, gullible people and other horrible, horrible things. It was a remnant from another time and must have seemed like genuine history to them.

I still think its really fucking sad that people in THE YEAR 2010 genuinely believe a bunch of stories on the same level of feasability as harry fuckin potter. But the majority of people naturally fear death, so it must be nice to think this big pink paradise awaits on the other side  

[Mew_User]

This thread is silly.

[creamcorn]

at what its become? the religion is still the same, its the great majority of the people that have become that which youre probably referring to (not so intelligent anymore) but they dont represent the religion they represent a big society and there is a difference

the book might be the same, but the way people interpret it is different. this is the problem with religion in modern day society - you have these ancient books written to an ancient world, and you try to apply them to a global, 21st century world and look at what happens. i have not read the qu'ran, but i have read the bible, and if they are similar in any way, they are not acceptable handbooks for modern day societies and should be treated like fairy tales instead of god's word.

the way i see it, its the problem with modern day society with religion, and just because alot of people interpret something wrongly doesnt mean its suddenly not the truth anymore

it's human nature to look for answers and question things, but religious people don't question the existence of god which to me is really weird.

because questioning the existence of their god shatters their view on everything. having the "faith of a child" is a cornerstone to solidifying your ignorance in religion.

again, this is probably only true for the christian religion. what if the religion actually challenges people to look at the universe and how it works, and after you see how harmonious, elegant and complex this whole thing is, its hard to believe that there isnt someone behind al of it.

its not like we should use 'god' as the answer to everything we dont know yet (why does an object fall ? because god pulls it to the ground) but learn about how he made it work (why does an object fall to the ground? because of gravity, a rule set by god)

now dont go and say oh now youre pulling the 'god created science-card', because thats not what im saying and that way youre just trying to demean it. what im saying is that man created science to help them understand more about god's creation, and when you talk about the beauty of the ever growing science, youre actually talking about how big the universe is and how there is still so much to learn for us

[Kött]

Accusing the pope certainly is a right thing to do but demanding to punish him will most likely not succeed and isn't really worth the effort for not even many of the priests and church servants who have committed these crimes seem to get charged because of lapse of time (which is even more ridiculous, though these people sit rot in their wheelchairs in retirement homes, are senile and shit their pants nowadays)

In the justice systems of some Islamic countries there is a certain law of vengence which alows you to punish someone by doing of letting do exactly the same thing to this person that he or she has done to you. This, yet, is questionabe after so many years and in a situation as described above...
But in certain cases as for people who rape (and murder) children it woudl just be adequate in my opinion since people like that most likely are sent to psychatries for five years, being released afterwards to seek their next victim and to destroy the lifes of another entire family by doing so. If someone would have killed (and/or maybe raped) someone I loved I would desire nothing elso but to slowly and painfully torture him to death and in this case I mean it and I'm pretty sure most people here think the same way...

Anyway, in the case of the pope there have been reported cases of victims trying to tell him what has happened to them but he either ignored it or just didn't believe them. And why? The answer is simple. These people who were accused were men he probably know well, colleagues of him or even friends whom he trusted and who he would never connect with something as child abuse. And no matter how realistic a story sounds and how many evidences there are; if you don't want something to be true, you just suppress the truth, no matter how truthful and good you usually are.

I am not a big fan of the pope and I'm pretty sure he has fucked up a lot of shit in his life and the way he deals with the issue as the statements he gives are just ridiculous and an insolence for every single victim, also I think that accusing him for covering the abusers and for sugarcoating the truth definitely is something that should be done, regardless wheather he will get punished for it in the end or not.

[trent bortknob]

The Bible to me seems more like a set of morals than anything else. It\\\'s chock full of metaphors and, well STORIES which idiots then took as stone cold fact instead of just interpreting the messages in the stories.

And then you get to the middle ages with the royals etc. using the book\\\'s messages (particularly the idea of Hell) to spread fear and control these poor, stupid, gullible people and other horrible, horrible things. It was a remnant from another time and must have seemed like genuine history to them.

I still think its really fucking sad that people in THE YEAR 2010 genuinely believe a bunch of stories on the same level of feasability as harry fuckin potter. But the majority of people naturally fear death, so it must be nice to think this big pink paradise awaits on the other side  

the problem with this notion is that the bible mnakes RELIGIOUS TRUTH CLAIMS. the bible says that the bible is true

the point is the people were idiots for believing it at all. most of these events obviously didn\\\'t happen and if you take them metaphorically it sort of destroys the purpose of even believing in the judeo-christian god, because there are other ways to get morals than believing in fables

lmao i\\\'m getting to the point where when i read things i read them in spanis hthis is great

shut up

i\\\'m sorry that i enjoy the fact that spanish is sinking into my subconscious

[trent bortknob]

atheism (which IS a religion it's just not a theistic religion)

ok

will you please explain yourself here. i'm holding back on why i do not agree with this, but i want to hear an explanation first.

there are two prevalent definitions of religion

definition 1 - a conceptual system that provides an interpretation of the world and the place of humans in it (this is basically just the definition of a worldview)

definition 2: diagnosis/cure - religion asserts we ALL have a basic, non-physical illness that deeply cripples us. religion then offers a cure


in both definition atheism fits the bill as a religion. in definition two, science answers all of our questions and cures our illnesses etc, and in definition 1 it fits because it tells us how the world is and how it works. a theistic religion would answer those questions with the assertion of a god or gods of some sort

[trent bortknob]

please don't get the idea that i think i'm some sort of philosophical genius with all of the answers. i'm only in a fuckin high school philosophy class. i just think that this shit is fun to talk about

[Wasim]

islam is clearly th best

[Mew_User]

Nice autoplay

[rtil]

the way i see it, its the problem with modern day society with religion, and just because alot of people interpret something wrongly doesnt mean its suddenly not the truth anymore

they\\\'re not interpreting it wrongly, and that\\\'s my point. the simple truth of the matter is that these ancient religions do not evolve with mankind - they constantly stay the same, never changing, never swaying. sure, the good, charitable things about them are easy to point out. but there are many practices from islam, christianity, and any monotheistic religion that just don\\\'t make any sense in a modern, civilized society. they cripple people and societies. they hinder progress, human rights and science. religion can never be an ultimate tool for good, because it is designed to control people.

if religions were like photo albums, there would be so many pages that they\\\'d try to hide from the world with bad photos they wouldn\\\'t be proud of. and that\\\'s what they continue to do to this day. and now science is beginning to chip away at the relevance of religion in society, which just makes it worse. i notice that the more science is prevalent in the world, the more religions tend to stray away from it and go back into their caves, clinging to ancient beliefs and lives of total ignorance. what is so hard about accepting the fact that there is no god? just live life to your fullest and forget about what happens to you when you die. nobody knows, no one will ever know, until you\\\'re dead. so forget about it.

it\\\'s human nature to look for answers and question things, but religious people don\\\'t question the existence of god which to me is really weird.

because questioning the existence of their god shatters their view on everything. having the "faith of a child" is a cornerstone to solidifying your ignorance in religion.

again, this is probably only true for the christian religion. what if the religion actually challenges people to look at the universe and how it works, and after you see how harmonious, elegant and complex this whole thing is, its hard to believe that there isnt someone behind al of it.

its not like we should use \\\'god\\\' as the answer to everything we dont know yet (why does an object fall ? because god pulls it to the ground) but learn about how he made it work (why does an object fall to the ground? because of gravity, a rule set by god)

now dont go and say oh now youre pulling the \\\'god created science-card\\\', because thats not what im saying and that way youre just trying to demean it. what im saying is that man created science to help them understand more about god\\\'s creation, and when you talk about the beauty of the ever growing science, youre actually talking about how big the universe is and how there is still so much to learn for us

when you put it that way, i would be surprised if god gave two shits about humans and probably put us here for his own amusement. and if he ever cared about us, that time has long past and he probably got bored and hasn\\\'t been here for centuries.

and saying \\\'god made these rules\\\' is so easy for religious people. i mean look at your religions. you can\\\'t see god, you can\\\'t talk to god, god is nowhere but everywhere at the same time. he cannot be observed in any way nor can you explain anything he does except that it was by his will. you don\\\'t have to prove anything, you can just say that he\\\'s behind it all and that\\\'s all you have to do. it\\\'s not good enough.

atheism (which IS a religion it\\\'s just not a theistic religion)

ok

will you please explain yourself here. i\\\'m holding back on why i do not agree with this, but i want to hear an explanation first.

there are two prevalent definitions of religion

definition 1 - a conceptual system that provides an interpretation of the world and the place of humans in it (this is basically just the definition of a worldview)

definition 2: diagnosis/cure - religion asserts we ALL have a basic, non-physical illness that deeply cripples us. religion then offers a cure


in both definition atheism fits the bill as a religion. in definition two, science answers all of our questions and cures our illnesses etc, and in definition 1 it fits because it tells us how the world is and how it works. a theistic religion would answer those questions with the assertion of a god or gods of some sort

ok i\\\'m sorry but the "atheism is a religion" argument is probably the dumbest thing i hear from the dumbest people - mostly new earth creationists. it\\\'s just not true. atheism has no set guidelines for how to live, what our purpose is here, or a "cure" for anything otherworldly. there is nothing spiritual about atheism because it is completely devoid of it.

a religion disqualifies a supernatural force. the very drive behind atheism is a disbelief, not a belief. when something cannot be explained, an athiest acknowledges that. a religious person would be more apt to attribute it to a divine power or force, "acts of god".

if athiesm was truly a religion, theists would have no problem with athiesm being taught in schools, nor would they criticize it, and vice versa. what you\\\'re suggesting is irrational and illogical.

[dilly]

This thread is silly.

[fish]

Keep fightin' the good fight.

[put]

This thread is silly.

[trent bortknob]

it's human nature to look for answers and question things, but religious people don't question the existence of god which to me is really weird.

because questioning the existence of their god shatters their view on everything. having the "faith of a child" is a cornerstone to solidifying your ignorance in religion.

again, this is probably only true for the christian religion. what if the religion actually challenges people to look at the universe and how it works, and after you see how harmonious, elegant and complex this whole thing is, its hard to believe that there isnt someone behind al of it.

its not like we should use 'god' as the answer to everything we dont know yet (why does an object fall ? because god pulls it to the ground) but learn about how he made it work (why does an object fall to the ground? because of gravity, a rule set by god)

now dont go and say oh now youre pulling the 'god created science-card', because thats not what im saying and that way youre just trying to demean it. what im saying is that man created science to help them understand more about god's creation, and when you talk about the beauty of the ever growing science, youre actually talking about how big the universe is and how there is still so much to learn for us

when you put it that way, i would be surprised if god gave two shits about humans and probably put us here for his own amusement. and if he ever cared about us, that time has long past and he probably got bored and hasn't been here for centuries.

and saying 'god made these rules' is so easy for religious people. i mean look at your religions. you can't see god, you can't talk to god, god is nowhere but everywhere at the same time. he cannot be observed in any way nor can you explain anything he does except that it was by his will. you don't have to prove anything, you can just say that he's behind it all and that's all you have to do. it's not good enough.

atheism (which IS a religion it's just not a theistic religion)

ok

will you please explain yourself here. i'm holding back on why i do not agree with this, but i want to hear an explanation first.

there are two prevalent definitions of religion

definition 1 - a conceptual system that provides an interpretation of the world and the place of humans in it (this is basically just the definition of a worldview)

definition 2: diagnosis/cure - religion asserts we ALL have a basic, non-physical illness that deeply cripples us. religion then offers a cure


in both definition atheism fits the bill as a religion. in definition two, science answers all of our questions and cures our illnesses etc, and in definition 1 it fits because it tells us how the world is and how it works. a theistic religion would answer those questions with the assertion of a god or gods of some sort

ok i'm sorry but the "atheism is a religion" argument is probably the dumbest thing i hear from the dumbest people - mostly new earth creationists. it's just not true. atheism has no set guidelines for how to live, what our purpose is here, or a "cure" for anything otherworldly. there is nothing spiritual about atheism because it is completely devoid of it.

a religion disqualifies a supernatural force. the very drive behind atheism is a disbelief, not a belief. when something cannot be explained, an athiest acknowledges that. a religious person would be more apt to attribute it to a divine power or force, "acts of god".

if athiesm was truly a religion, theists would have no problem with athiesm being taught in schools, nor would they criticize it, and vice versa. what you're suggesting is irrational and illogical.

well it's definitely a controversial issue, but i also think that it's an irrelevant issue. it doesn't really matter if you consider it a religion or not.

but really, one of those definitions asserts that we have a non physical illness that it needs to cure. that illness is the fact that we crave knowledge but don't have answers for the biggest questions (where did we come from, why do we exist, etc). that's what the actual illness is, and the cure is found in all religions. in theism, their god or whatever can explain it all, and that's why people believe in it. with atheism, science can answer those questions. there are more questions after that entail after each answer (where did god come from if he made us? what triggered the big bang?) which no one has a REAL answer for. it's only real guideline for living is to live your life, which is a way of living, and most atheists want to say that there is still morality without god, so you still need to live by those rules or else you're either going to go to prison or just have a bad life

but yeah, big time atheists disagree with each other on whether or not it's a religion. who cares though? why does it matter if it is or is not a religion? theists are going to disagree with it either way because it claims their religion(s) is/are wrong. that doesn't really have any effect on our schooling though, because theism is only taught in catholic schools or special schooling made for the religion itself. public schools don't teach any religion unless you take some sort of religious class or something and i dont think that's very common

whether or not atheism is a religion or not does not affect whether it is true or not

[emanhattan]

so getting back on topic i think the pope should go fuck himself

just because you have a silly hat doesn't mean you can get away with protecting child rapists and helping them rape again

no matter how you feel about god

in fact, if you truly believe in the catholic faith, you should want the pope out more than anyone, because he's making your faith look like horseshit

I can agree with all of this except for the last paragraph

my beliefs in god and the way I act independently of my religion are all of my own. I know most of you dont have religious affinities but let me put it like this since I do:

I am a very moderate christian and not like the idiots who believe everything they hear.I have never met a christian who does not admit (or "believe" fff) in evolution and Id like to think most of them know creationism is obviously bullshit. There is something in christian religion called "dogmas de fe" wich means things you are forced to believe in in order to belong to that religion and most of them are purely theological and cant realy be proved by science because the ones that can be proved by science are not "dogmas". cretatonism for example, is not a dogma. you can choose to believe or not to believe in it and still be a christian etc.

even tough I will always approve science vs religion as a source of explanation for things, i am still a believer on my own right.

And I think the catholic church, not the catholic/christian religion, is the source of the problem.

I dont care about the actions of the church because I dont feel it represents christianity. I try to think there is no institution between the love of god and ones self. If you can believe in such things...


















































Also this has turned into a debate thread god job every1!

[Wasim]

islam is clearly th best

[Jeinu]

well it's definitely a controversial issue, but i also think that it's an irrelevant issue. it doesn't really matter if you consider it a religion or not.

but really, one of those definitions asserts that we have a non physical illness that it needs to cure. that illness is the fact that we crave knowledge but don't have answers for the biggest questions (where did we come from, why do we exist, etc). that's what the actual illness is, and the cure is found in all religions. in theism, their god or whatever can explain it all, and that's why people believe in it. with atheism, science can answer those questions. there are more questions after that entail after each answer (where did god come from if he made us? what triggered the big bang?) which no one has a REAL answer for. it's only real guideline for living is to live your life, which is a way of living, and most atheists want to say that there is still morality without god, so you still need to live by those rules or else you're either going to go to prison or just have a bad life

but yeah, big time atheists disagree with each other on whether or not it's a religion. who cares though? why does it matter if it is or is not a religion? theists are going to disagree with it either way because it claims their religion(s) is/are wrong. that doesn't really have any effect on our schooling though, because theism is only taught in catholic schools or special schooling made for the religion itself. public schools don't teach any religion unless you take some sort of religious class or something and i dont think that's very common

whether or not atheism is a religion or not does not affect whether it is true or not

even though rtil already covered it, i just want to add a few more thoughts. i actually took catholic theology and world religion classes in high school so kind of have a pretty good idea of what a religion is. In every religion i learned about, there were several defining features that made a religion, a religion. The three main things i can think of are that there is a communal, traditional, spiritual aspect to each of them. Communities of faith will gather together on their holy days or weekly sabbaths to celebrate their beliefs. Traditions such as interpreting their sacred texts and preforming rituals during certain times of the year, or a complex hierarchical system of clergy that only certain people are allowed into. And lastly, spirituality, which usually involves the belief of a soul/spirit that travels to an afterlife and must suffer consequences or enjoy rewards based on just how well the person followed the religion's traditional rules while on earth.

Seeing as atheism cannot apply for any of these features, i really feel it cannot be shoved into the religion department. furthermore, atheists can differ from one another in their world views/philosophies extremely. You could be atheist and spiritual (ie in non-theistic religions like Buddhism), atheist and moral and progressive (ie secular humanism), or just atheist, immoral, ignorant and a hedonistic bastard in general.

er anyway yeah just thought i'd throw that in there

[rtil]

well it's definitely a controversial issue

only amongst fundamentalists who would like to group atheism into religion to make themselves feel better

it doesn't really matter if you consider it a religion or not.

yes, it does. it matters that everyone acknowledge that atheism is not a religion, in order to understand it correctly

but really, one of those definitions asserts that we have a non physical illness that it needs to cure. that illness is the fact that we crave knowledge but don't have answers for the biggest questions (where did we come from, why do we exist, etc). that's what the actual illness is, and the cure is found in all religions. in theism, their god or whatever can explain it all, and that's why people believe in it. with atheism, science can answer those questions. there are more questions after that entail after each answer (where did god come from if he made us? what triggered the big bang?) which no one has a REAL answer for. it's only real guideline for living is to live your life, which is a way of living, and most atheists want to say that there is still morality without god, so you still need to live by those rules or else you're either going to go to prison or just have a bad life

atheism doesn't denote providing answers or morality or ANYTHING. it is the DENIAL of the EXISTENCE of GOD and the SUPERNATURAL. science and atheism aren't the same thing.

atheism is a denial of theism.

science is a means of understanding what surrounds us.

and please don't tell me you think "morality" comes from religion.

but yeah, big time atheists disagree with each other on whether or not it's a religion.

no they do not.

who cares though? why does it matter if it is or is not a religion? theists are going to disagree with it either way because it claims their religion(s) is/are wrong. that doesn't really have any effect on our schooling though, because theism is only taught in catholic schools or special schooling made for the religion itself. public schools don't teach any religion unless you take some sort of religious class or something and i dont think that's very common

whether or not atheism is a religion or not does not affect whether it is true or not

it doesn't affect whether it's true, but it does affect its perception. atheism is important - it's the only thing that keeps religion out of state and law. religion is a private practice, it should not encroach on society in a way that would give it any power over people. that's what the middle ages were, and we don't want to go through that again.