Is Agnosticism Bad?

[trent bortknob]

well there certainly is more to life than what we know as a species. that's not faith, that's intellectual humility and acknowledging that we don't know everything that there is to know. that doesn't mean that there are things that work outside of the natural workings of the universe.

faith, by definition, is the acceptance of a claim or idea with no evidence to support it. any idea that anything happens outside of the established working of natural processes (or perhaps new ones that could be discovered) have to be based on faith, and are by definition irrational.

and no, i didn't say that supernatural meant "unnatural". what is considered "natural" and "unnatural" is not easy to decide, and is not relevant to this discussion. for example, many people claim that computers are unnatural. but think about it: computers were invented by humans, and humans exist in nature. humans used the nature around them to invent and use the computer. how is this unnatural? this is how we make houses and cook food too (although obviously computers are more complex and serve different purposes). sure, computers don't come about in nature without humans, but beaver dams don't come about without beavers and i don't think anyone is claiming that beaver dams aren't natural.

so when you say that breast implants aren't natural, it's saying that they aren't the real, original breasts that one was born with. just like some people are natural blonde and some people just bleach their hair. it's sort of an equivocation, this form of "unnatural" has a different definition than the "unnatural" that was mentioned before. so that's just a misunderstanding of what natural means.

supernatural would imply that something is above the workings of the natural world, NOT just above our grasp or understanding. like i said before, defining it that way means that everything we didn't understand before was supernatural, and now that we understand it better it is no longer supernatural, it's just natural. how do we know what is beyond our understanding, and how do we know whether or not something that is beyond our understanding is actually supernatural? many people thought the sun was a supernatural, powerful deity in the past. now, that is no longer the case. people thought that other planets were gods at some time. now those things are not beyond our understanding. so, those things are not supernatural, they have always been working in a natural way, and they came about through natural processes. now we know that, and we didn't know that before, hundreds to thousands of years ago. the only thing that has changed is us and our understanding, not the actual universe.

so, supernatural being defined as anything beyond our understanding is kinda silly. but i don't think most people are of that position. most people say that the supernatural is just beyond our understanding, but it doesn't encompass EVERYTHING that we don't understand. the problems with all things supernatural is that we can't even have a real discussion about it because no one can really make a coherent and agreed upon definition of what exists supernaturally, and beyond that, nobody has any evidence that anything has or ever did exist independent of natural causes or natural law. miracles, gods, fairies, demons, angels, ghosts, not a single one of those things has ever had a shred of evidence to demonstrate that it exists. the ideas are just superstition, there are silly, and belief in them is irrational.

[trent bortknob]

i love your responses, but i do believe in a diety. why not?

that's totally fine, but some people actually care if their beliefs are true. if you don't care, you can believe in whatever made up deity that you want.

oh, and i have yet to hear 1 good example of why popular morality does not govern all morality.

if everyone but you thought that killing dogs with an axe just because they thought it was humorous, and you were raised to believe it was, is it right or wrong?

first off, truth is not established by the majority. this is true with anything. like i said, at one point, the majority of people believed the earth was flat. but the truth shone through. it's not like we just all changed our minds for no reason. there was evidence to back it up, and we slowly began to accept it. most americans apparently believe that christ will have a second coming, and that the earth was created in 6 days 6,000 years ago. but this is obviously not true, even though most people in this country apparently believe it.

and moving on to moral ideas, if they were determined by popular belief, it seems unlikely that they could change so radically. i mean, look at slavery, discrimination, sexism, etc. it's not like the majority became black people or women. we're still dominated by white, christian males. what changed is our understanding. it's very obvious that it is immoral to treat other groups as inherently below you. it doesn't work well as a society and is not conducive to human flourishing. it is damaging, limiting, and overall just not a good idea. it's easy to establish that is immoral with almost no intellectual hoohah, just imagine that you lived in a society where white males were oppressed for no other reason than they are white males. you would be pretty unhappy, and it wouldn't seem fair.

i cannot answer you why it took so long for people to wake up and realize that this was the case, but i can assure you that popular belief does not assert moral truths (although i will concede that popular belief does have a notable effect on people's perception of the truth. this is certainly true. but i think that moral, scientific, and historical truths exist independently of popular or personal belief).

[trent bortknob]

fuck you sinister are those linkin park lyrics

fuck

[Sinitron]

yeah more or less i thought i would make a meaningful contribution to a meaningful thread

[Philip K Dick]

aside from the tangential novel you just wrote about the definition of the word supernatural, faith isnt synonymous with irrationality. religions with irrevocably almighty deities tend to teeter on the border of fantasy, mostly because the initial beliefs are skewed over time and the values of the religion are stubborn to adapt to the ever-changing rules of modern culture. having faith is only irrational if it defines and regulates every one of your actions. its like a police officer who goes out of his way to give tickets to litterers, jaywalkers, and anyone who he sees driving more than five miles over the speed limit. that's absolute belief in the law. which i doubt many cops actually practice.

that's not faith, it's blind faith. there is a difference.

[Pants, the terrible]

the opinion of slavery changed because of a war over popular belief (and unfair taxation...)

again, my point is that opinions/morals will change via popular opinion alone. rebels even have to conform to it because they are specifically rebelling against the idea, so they are accepting its plausibility, but hindering to accept it.

morality is all about who you were raised around, how you were brought up, who you were living with, and the society forced around you. your decisions are all completely based on this society until you reach another, and understand their culture. the diverging of cultures, ideas, and morals all lead up to one gigantic agreement: try not to physically, psychologically, or emotionally damage your fellow man or yourself. that's all it will amount to.

morals are just a bunch of questions that lead up to it. right and wrong are still infinitely debatable because the only signs of perfection are from deities we "make up". its sort of funny how such a simple idea of perfection and small set of moral codes have completely altered every society on the face of the planet indefinitely...

[Jon]

can we try and avoid the 'pseudo-intellectual bullshit' and try to stay on topic pants

[emanhattan]

So I guess in the end we can all agree that religion is ok but following it blindly (or any moral code, really)  is dangerous and somewhat selfish?
in other words agnosticism is... good. yea

[emanhattan]

ps im trying to apply that question to religion only I believe in the supernatural/god/aliens/shit all in different ways.

[rtil]

the opinion of slavery changed because of a war over popular belief (and unfair taxation...)

again, my point is that opinions/morals will change via popular opinion alone. rebels even have to conform to it because they are specifically rebelling against the idea, so they are accepting its plausibility, but hindering to accept it.

but the south didn't change their opinion of slavery just because they lost a war. the only reason they changed was because they had to. even today, almost 2 centuries after the civil war, the south is still a cesspool of racism and racially charged crimes. they don't care what the "popular opinion" is.

morality is all about who you were raised around, how you were brought up, who you were living with, and the society forced around you. your decisions are all completely based on this society until you reach another, and understand their culture. the diverging of cultures, ideas, and morals all lead up to one gigantic agreement: try not to physically, psychologically, or emotionally damage your fellow man or yourself. that's all it will amount to.

what are you basing this off of?

morals are just a bunch of questions that lead up to it. right and wrong are still infinitely debatable because the only signs of perfection are from deities we "make up". its sort of funny how such a simple idea of perfection and small set of moral codes have completely altered every society on the face of the planet indefinitely...

actually, most deities are very imperfect and show human weakness.. the god of the bible - for example - is vengeful, wrathful, envious, narcissistic and by all means a despot of his "chosen" people who slaughtered millions. he was designed this way as a tool of fear to control the people who followed christianity, and that's how the church has controlled and oppressed its followers for over two millennium. which begs the question, what is perfection? i think perfection can be found far more easily in nature than in a psychotic, two-faced manmade god, which leads me to believe that humans don't know what perfection is. as a consequence, morality can be a tough subject for humans.

morality comes from society, yes, but you have to remember that humans are also animals, and we are a social animal, in that we cannot survive very well on our own and do best in groups. we need eachother to survive, and so we are instinctively kind to others and have a generally nurturing mentality. anyone who deviates from this is generally considered malevolent and groups that deviate from this are generally classified as cults. in any intelligent (not necessarily modern - see the ancient greeks) society, you see a free people thriving and working together towards the common goal of human progress.

it's not as complicated as you make it out to be. it's in our DNA.

[emanhattan]

Heres another idea, IF god exists chances are he would fuckin hate the chrisian church for doing all the things they did IN HIS NAME and we've probably been sold an incorrect depiction of him.

OR maybe he is as cruel as he sounds in the bible and can get away with it because ykno bein GOD and all.

your decisions are all completely based on this society until you reach another, and understand their culture. the diverging of cultures, ideas, and morals all lead up to one gigantic agreement: try not to physically, psychologically, or emotionally damage your fellow man or yourself. that's all it will amount to.

tell that to the aztecs!


although to their credit they were trying to sustain the universe so idk

[rtil]

Heres another idea, IF god exists chances are he would fuckin hate the chrisian church for doing all the things they did IN HIS NAME and we've probably been sold an incorrect depiction of him.

OR maybe he is as cruel as he sounds in the bible and can get away with it because ykno bein GOD and all.

well the bible is supposed to be the infallible word of god , is it not? if this is to be assumed, the god of the old testament did everything that the bible says he did, and all the old testament laws were created by god and used by his people during that time.

you also have to consider this - how could god be mad at anyone but himself for human's depictions of what his church was supposed to be like? he obviously left it entirely up to people to do this for him, because he certainly has not made himself apparent to anyone for over 2,000 years now... so he only has himself to blame if humans have ruined what he envisioned his church to be, because he's never here to fix it!

imagine if god made himself obviously clear to all the people on earth - what an amazing revelation that would be to mankind. but no, he's been gone and dead for a long time now, and i think it's high time christians stop pretending he's going to come back.

[Sinitron]

nuke islam

[emanhattan]

OR maybe he is as cruel as he sounds in the bible and can get away with it because ykno bein GOD and all.

well the bible is supposed to be the infallible word of god , is it not?

Yesss and No
it would be if it wasnt controlled by a comittee and voted on what stuff we get to see and we dont. and which moments are supossed to be taken literally and which are supossed to be taken figuratively. I started giving a lot of thought to that when I was roughly 11.
its the word of god but you can dismiss it pretty much all you want, provided you dont get into jesus/ressurection territory.

this is a bit off topic but its a fun example. back when I was like 12 I got suspended for accidentally, (and really I had no intentions to cause an actual fight) asking the teacher in which day did god create the dinosaurs and in which one he decided to kill them which kinda doesnt compute. Again, in mexico not even catholic schools are big on that creationist bullshit but she took it as an offense. ocassionally this kind of stuff happened which made me feel less and less inclined to buy into all that stuff.

tbh my faith would probably have remained a lot stronger if people who teach you religion just admitted they dont have all the answers. "Hey padre where do aborted kids go to if they die before having been baptized?" to limbo wtf. Just say you DONT KNOW DICK man fuck. id understand, i mean theres no possile way you could know that!!! if you make shit up and then get proven wrong then youll have even less credibility than before.

i think the reason why they feel forced to make stuff up is because the human mind works in a very funny way. I dont thinkmost people subconciously want the truth. they want ANSWERS, any answer as long as it gives them a sense of security, even false secutiry, will do. people demand answers and in that sense religion provides. and its a shame that it does.

and I STILL believe in god. i know my logic is backwards as fuck but i just wanted to share a few thoughts for those of you who are on the atheist side of this buisness and havent necessarily been exposed to it.

ffuuuuu

sorry for the brainstorm

[BluPhoenix]

nuke islam

[rtil]

OR maybe he is as cruel as he sounds in the bible and can get away with it because ykno bein GOD and all.

well the bible is supposed to be the infallible word of god , is it not?

Yesss and No
it would be if it wasnt controlled by a comittee and voted on what stuff we get to see and we dont. and which moments are supossed to be taken literally and which are supossed to be taken figuratively. I started giving a lot of thought to that when I was roughly 11.
its the word of god but you can dismiss it pretty much all you want, provided you dont get into jesus/ressurection territory.

i was more talking along the lines of the old testament laws where god supported slavery, rape = forced marriage, stoning children, etc, as well as the many tribes that god ordered his own people to slaughter, women and children included. are those taken literally or figuratively? they seem like literal biblical history to me.

this is a bit off topic but its a fun example. back when I was like 12 I got suspended for accidentally, (and really I had no intentions to cause an actual fight) asking the teacher in which day did god create the dinosaurs and in which one he decided to kill them which kinda doesnt compute. Again, in mexico not even catholic schools are big on that creationist bullshit but she took it as an offense. ocassionally this kind of stuff happened which made me feel less and less inclined to buy into all that stuff.

tbh my faith would probably have remained a lot stronger if people who teach you religion just admitted they dont have all the answers. "Hey padre where do aborted kids go to if they die before having been baptized?" to limbo wtf. Just say you DONT KNOW DICK man fuck. id understand, i mean theres no possile way you could know that!!! if you make shit up and then get proven wrong then youll have even less credibility than before.

well you're right - they don't know anything, they can only claim to know, because it is impossible to know. how can you have any faith in a divine being who reveals nothing to his people?

i think the reason why they feel forced to make stuff up is because the human mind works in a very funny way. I dont thinkmost people subconciously want the truth. they want ANSWERS, any answer as long as it gives them a sense of security, even false secutiry, will do. people demand answers and in that sense religion provides. and its a shame that it does.

and I STILL believe in god. i know my logic is backwards as fuck but i just wanted to share a few thoughts for those of you who are on the atheist side of this buisness and havent necessarily been exposed to it.

they're forced to make up stuff because they realize people will lose faith if someone doesn't claim to have divine insight on the matter.

i don't really understand why you believe in god when you seem to understand that your entire religion is a sham.

[emanhattan]

i don't really understand why you believe in god when you seem to understand that your entire religion is a sham.

hmmm well i guess that does deserve a bit of an explanation.
i believe as humans we dont have a complete pereception of all existing phenomena. I have this theory.... i think the relationship between humans and god is similar to the relationhip between a blind man and images. the blind man can probably feel,smell and hear everything that happens around him, but his mind is remote from the concept of an image, and colors, and values, and visual information altogether. and he can only assume it exists or perhaps learn from it from someone else... but the person telling him this is also blind... that is kind of how i feel about the whole thing.

[redmongoose]

all are welcome in the church of redm

join today and get a free TBA TROPHY with PIZZA POINT

[rtil]

i don't really understand why you believe in god when you seem to understand that your entire religion is a sham.

hmmm well i guess that does deserve a bit of an explanation.
i believe as humans we dont have a complete pereception of all existing phenomena. I have this theory.... i think the relationship between humans and god is similar to the relationhip between a blind man and images. the blind man can probably feel,smell and hear everything that happens around him, but his mind is remote from the concept of an image, and colors, and values, and visual information altogether. and he can only assume it exists or perhaps learn from it from someone else... but the person telling him this is also blind... that is kind of how i feel about the whole thing.

you're correct that humans don't have perception of everything. there are things that we cannot see with our naked eye or can't comprehend or compute with our minds. but we use technology to extend our perception, and that is how we learn the workings of the universe, and also how we discover more questions to answer. this is how we have functioned since the dawn of man. what does god contribute to this? nothing.. if the answer to everything was "god did it", what's the point?

i'm not sure what kind of god you believe in , but if it's the god of the bible - an intelligent, "creator" god - there is no case for his existence. there is no intelligence in the design of the universe and life. nature has no goal - it only evolves and reacts to what is around it.

[emanhattan]

i'm not sure what kind of god you believe in

me neither