thebackalleys

Sorry for starting such a serious topic but this subject has been on my mind for some time

I've heard a lot of different viewpoints on whether being (or staying as) agnostic is good or bad. I'm curious as to what your thoughts on this are.   

i don't think so. i'm an atheist, but i can see why one would be agnostic. while i do think the gods that man has invented are irrational and easy to disregard as non-existent, there is no rational way to disprove anything that by definition is unable to be proven. but for me that is not enough to suggest that there may be one. i find the idea that there may be one completely improbable, and if there is one, he/she/it does not care about this planet and what goes on on it, or perhaps is not even aware of it at all.

some people say it is sitting on the fence and intellectual laziness

well you are sitting on the fence, but i don't think there's anything lazy about it. it's not like you haven't thought about it. but i think most agnostics ultimately accept that the idea of god is manmade.

^

Quote from: rtil on October  3, 2011 05:52 PM
i don't think so. i'm an atheist, but i can see why one would be agnostic. while i do think the gods that man has invented are irrational and easy to disregard as non-existent, there is no rational way to disprove anything that by definition is unable to be proven. but for me that is not enough to suggest that there may be one. i find the idea that there may be one completely improbable, and if there is one, he/she/it does not care about this planet and what goes on on it, or perhaps is not even aware of it at all.

Kind of agree with you, i think that this agnosticism is not that bad of a thing, compared to all those mindless religions that most people only follow out of fear. They make a few points, but all in all it seems like they are just avoiding a definite answer.

Well, not that I could give you anything that's 100% for sure. I don't believe in any deities or supernatural beings / happenings of any sort, but am a doubtful person to a lot of things. This might be strange, but I probably closely resemble a paranoid / skeptic person, because I don't believe that what we know right now about the world is the full truth, and are being constantly led astray. Whetever by someone, or by our own process of thought. 

There's also the fact, that out through history, people came to believe in something, until it turned out to be not completely true or rather false. The reasoning behind that was always: "because at that time we didn't have enough information or technology to come close to the real truth behind things." People of course changed their views, only to be broken again by another statement, with a similar reasoning.

For example, let's look at a simple debate about chocolate. How many times have we heard that it's unhealthy? A lot. How many times have we heard that it's actually healthy? A lot. How many times have we heard that it's bad for X, and later heard claims that it's actually good for X? A lot. I cannot really take a side in these situations anymore. Who is telling the truth? Who is lying? Where these people just payed by someone to make these statements, or are these actually true? In short: who the fuck knows anymore, I feel like a fucking paranoid. mindfuck time.

This seems like I kind of went off topic, but as far as I know it, agnosticism isn't solely connected to religion. If I am in the wrong, someone slap me with a fish.

Ah yeah, this quote also came to my mind while thinking about this, I don't know who said it, but imho it's an interesting statement.
"You have to prove something, before you can disprove it."

So yeah, if all in all we take into consideration what I've just said, I can say that there's logic in becoming an agnostic guy, but whetever it's a bad or good thing, is up to the people themselves. My past experiences kind of tell me it's bad, in situations where you are left to answer last, with you having the power to decide a debate, in which no one is willing to accept the answer, that you are not sure, whetever it's A or B.

being agnostic is all about being above such TRIVIAL concerns

I'm an agnostic, and obviously must be biased.

Even so I don't think any religion can be "bad" so long as it doesn't negatively impact anyone else. It's all a matter of opinion and belief, and while some may not agree with my beliefs or lack of beliefs,  I may not necessarily agree with theirs.

I'm an agnostic because I recognize that the the gods of other religions are in fact very real to those who follow that religion and it is possible that they are a certain way because of how that belief or dependence or support psychologically affects them.. Those gods just aren't real to me.

if god came down from above and beat my ass i would be the most furiously zealous asshole to have ever desecrated the heathen lands

and sin coaxes himself into another pizza point

The way I see it, there's no way for us to really know anything absolutely and to think otherwise is arrogant

everything is law nothing is fact

Quote from: rtil on October  3, 2011 05:52 PMthere is no rational way to disprove anything that by definition is unable to be proven.

most of the time this is usually how i look at things. however, i understand an atheist's point of view as well. it gets me a little bit irritated when my friend says "being an agnostic is just a lazy man's athiest", which i think is a little unfair. i have opinions and arguments about these things just like everyone else.

Quote from: rtil
but for me that is not enough to suggest that there may be one. i find the idea that there may be one completely improbable, and if there is one, he/she/it does not care about this planet and what goes on on it, or perhaps is not even aware of it at all.

this is how i used to think about things a lot of the time, and to be honest still pretty much feel this way, but not as strongly enough to call myself an athiest. i guess it really might be fair to call me lazy then. regardless, whenever i get into discussions about religion it usually comes down to the same thing:

Quote from: rtil
most agnostics ultimately accept that the idea of god is manmade.

usually i'm more strong minded about this. oh well.

nothing is true, everything is permitted

spiritual beliefs cant be bad, rationalizing evil actions through beliefs is

Quote from: CoolDrMoney on October  3, 2011 11:42 PM
The way I see it, there's no way for us to really know anything absolutely and to think otherwise is arrogant

i hope this is not a jab at atheists.

you can easily come to the rational conclusion that the idea of god is made in the image of man. there are other things we have discovered about the universe through thousands of years of human progress, there are things we know because we have things that work, things that have made our species flourish. these are tangible.

but the supernatural is by definition unknowable. it's far more arrogant for a religious person to claim they have a "personal relationship" with an obscure supernatural power than an atheist to claim they know there is no god. there is no evidence that god exists - it is not arrogant to assume there is not one.but it is a completely faith-based claim to say otherwise, especially if you are to say that this designer is intelligent.

Quote from: ParkourMAN on October  4, 2011 05:58 AM
spiritual beliefs cant be bad, rationalizing evil actions through beliefs is

good job this is a very valid statement everyone should read this so i am quoting it

Quote from: Sinitron on October  4, 2011 08:46 AM

Quote from: ParkourMAN on October  4, 2011 05:58 AM
spiritual beliefs cant be bad, rationalizing evil actions through beliefs is

good job this is a very valid statement everyone should read this so i am quoting it

at the risk of turning this into yet another debate thread i'm going to have to disagree with his statement. spiritual beliefs can often lead to people being indirectly hurt out of naive faith. for example, spiritual beliefs may cause someone to turn away from modern medicine in favor of healing through prayer, or thinking starving children need a holy book instead of food - and while they thought their intentions were good, people can easily end up dead because of them.

well denying someone medical aid pretty much counts as EVIL doesn't it

but as far as im concerned i dont give a shit if someone gets their asses kicked because they believe god will suck their balls or whatever as long as they don't fucking impose the god-licker of testictles on me

Quote from: ParkourMAN on October  4, 2011 05:58 AM
spiritual beliefs cant be bad, rationalizing evil actions through beliefs is

probably the best statement in this topic
if people like believing in something, if believing in a god gives them hope or happiness or whatever, then why not. It doesn't harm anyone.

Quote from: rtil on October  4, 2011 10:52 AM

Quote from: Sinitron on October  4, 2011 08:46 AM

Quote from: ParkourMAN on October  4, 2011 05:58 AM
spiritual beliefs cant be bad, rationalizing evil actions through beliefs is

good job this is a very valid statement everyone should read this so i am quoting it

at the risk of turning this into yet another debate thread i'm going to have to disagree with his statement. spiritual beliefs can often lead to people being indirectly hurt out of naive faith. for example, spiritual beliefs may cause someone to turn away from modern medicine in favor of healing through prayer, or thinking starving children need a holy book instead of food - and while they thought their intentions were good, people can easily end up dead because of them.

justifying something using religion seems generally bad to me, whether their intentions are good or not. i think that's what parkourman was saying anyway.

Quote from: stusader on October  4, 2011 07:15 PM
justifying something using religion seems generally bad to me, whether their intentions are good or not. i think that's what parkourman was saying anyway.

spiritual beliefs led them to think it wasn't evil, so the statement "spiritual beliefs cant be bad" as an absolute doesn't follow. spiritual beliefs can sometimes be very bad.

Quote from: psi on October  4, 2011 04:33 PM

Quote from: ParkourMAN on October  4, 2011 05:58 AM
spiritual beliefs cant be bad, rationalizing evil actions through beliefs is

probably the best statement in this topic
if people like believing in something, if believing in a god gives them hope or happiness or whatever, then why not. It doesn't harm anyone.

just think about what you're saying. you think it's ok for people to hinge their happiness on an illusion, an imaginary friend, if you will. have you ever seen an ex-alcoholic or drug addict who "turned to christ", handing out chick tracts on the street or holding up a "you're going to hell" sign on the side of the street? to them, god is their new alcohol, their new drug. that's how they cope. it's a temporary solution to a bigger problem, because it's not real. those people need real medical attention from real people. a god can't do anything for you except what your brain allows it to convince itself of.

having belief in an idea that physicially controls people's actions is... simple logic.

denial of physical force is funny to me :3

Quote from: rtil on October  4, 2011 08:19 PMspiritual beliefs led them to think it wasn't evil, so the statement "spiritual beliefs cant be bad" as an absolute doesn't follow. spiritual beliefs can sometimes be very bad.

They don't think it is evil because they justify it with religious bullshit, just like a vegan would justify murdering anyone who eats meat or a shop owner would justify gunning down someone who steals like a sticker or something. Believing that you will get to ram a stick of dynamite up your ass when you die doesn't make someone an asshole, if they think their belief justifies cruelty or meddling with someone else's affairs they're pricks so WTF!

this discussion is gay nuke africa prolem solv

As long as someone doesn't use their beliefs to fuck someone else over or break the law, they're free to do as they please.

You are entitled to believe whatever you want as long as you don't try and shove those beliefs into other people. Someone may not be living "morally" or a way that we ourselves would prefer to live and may in fact be a miserable sack of shit with no use whatsoever, but if they've made the choice to live that way then we can't stop them. It's not our place.

We can't or at least shouldn't try to control other people. If they need to believe in a higher power, so be it. I'll let someone believe in a dirty hippie who claims to be the son of a god as long as they don't try to make me believe what they do or try to harm anyone for not believing it.

Quote from: rtil on October  4, 2011 08:19 PM
just think about what you're saying. you think it's ok for people to hinge their happiness on an illusion, an imaginary friend, if you will. have you ever seen an ex-alcoholic or drug addict who "turned to christ", handing out chick tracts on the street or holding up a "you're going to hell" sign on the side of the street? to them, god is their new alcohol, their new drug. that's how they cope. it's a temporary solution to a bigger problem, because it's not real. those people need real medical attention from real people. a god can't do anything for you except what your brain allows it to convince itself of.

I never said it was a good solution. All I said was that if people are happy with believing in god, then let them be. If someone is about to die, could be saved with medicine but says "if god wants to take me now, then let him" then that's fine for me. And please don't argue with anything like "that's pretty egoistic of that person". That's the usual response i hear and i always reply with "isn't it more egoistic to keep someone alive because you or others don't want to lose that person, regardless of that person being happy?".

All it comes down to for me is enjoying life. If some ex-alcoholic decides to stay away from drugs and turn to god instead, then that's good. Drugs make you do irrational things that may even harm other people. When turning to god, you can be sure that those people are by far less likely to physically harm people.

That being said, this is all a matter of personal belief. I still think that people who try to push their believes onto others are incredibly annoying and should definitely stop doing that shit. If you're happy with your beliefs, that's cool, but don't preach it to others. It's kind of like a glass of olives or whatever, if you like them, you're happy but you shouldn't try to force other people to eat them as well cause they may not like it.

i don't see how it would be egotistical to think that others can believe what they want. my only point is that religion can be psychologically damaging, especially to vulnerable and naive people, and people with addictive personalities.

i am agnostic in the sense that i believe that if there is a god it's a passive one that likely only sparked the initial creation of matter and has no power beyond that

by definition god is something beyond human understanding so there's absolutely no way we could really know one exists or that it has any power over us, so it doesn't really matter if it does or not

Quote from: DrRumack on October  5, 2011 01:16 AM
i am agnostic in the sense that i believe that if there is a god it's a passive one that likely only sparked the initial creation of matter and has no power beyond that

by definition god is something beyond human understanding so there's absolutely no way we could really know one exists or that it has any power over us, so it doesn't really matter if it does or not

this is very, very close to what i believe

whether or not agnosticism is "bad" depends on your definition of agnosticism.

many people define an agnostic as a person who "doesn't know" (and this is correct, in a sense), and in turn define an agnostic as someone who has no opinion on the matter. usually they think that the agnostic doesn't know, doesn't care, and doesn't think about it. i'd refer to this as "de-facto agnosticism", because it's how most people define agnosticism.

however, like plenty of other words in the english language, the de-facto definition is not correct. an agnostic is someone who believes that any knowledge about a god or gods is UNKNOWABLE. any detail about a god, its existence, its traits, its location, etc, is something that humans cannot know. no one can or ever will know if a god or any gods exist or not, or what they are like. i'd refer to this as "philosophical agnosticism".

some people soften up the above definition and say that no one can ever know FOR SURE, as in, no one can know anything 100%. i'd just refer to this as agnosticism, because i think it's the middle ground between the two extremes.

one thing that has to be pointed out here is that someone can be agnostic and an atheist. they can also be agnostic and christian. that's why you might hear people say that they're agnostic atheists or agnostic christians. an agnostic atheist would say that she doesn't believe in a god, but she doesn't know if one exists or not, vice versa for a theistic agnostic.

is being an agnostic good or bad? i think this is a weird question. i don't think i could say that following any belief system is inherently bad. the most i could say is that a belief system is inherently dangerous.

de-facto agnosticism is not bad as much as it is indecisive and, in some cases, lazy. usually i think of de-facto agnostics as people who haven't made up their minds and haven't really thought it through. they are somewhat fence sitting, which could be good or bad. they may not be strong in their convictions, but at least they aren't jumping to conclusions. they could be held up because they haven't really thought about the subject, or they could be in the closet atheists who don't want to damage relationships with religious friends and family (i suspect this is probably the case for most de-facto agnostics).

philosophical agnosticism is kind of silly, in my opinion. i don't know why you'd follow any belief system that says there is something that is impossible to know. how could you ever think that you know whether or not something is impossible to know? this branch of agnosticism may or may not be bad, but i think there is very little sense to it.

finally, the softened up, middle-ground, regular agnosticism that people use as add-ons to their belief systems is sort of necessary in a very detailed definition. i think it is obvious that you cannot know most things 100% for sure, so in that sense, i would call myself an agnostic atheist. i think most people here would add the tags "agnostic" to their beliefs in god, because otherwise they're claiming to have absolute knowledge of god, which is unlikely. so yeah, most of us may be agnostic in this sense, but i tend to reject all of this bullshit because it muddles up the question.

in practice, i just refer to myself as an atheist. however, there is more to be said about atheist, so let me define this a little bit too

obviously, an atheist is someone who does not have a belief in god. to get to the nitty gritty, there are two types of atheists.

weak atheism - this is the branch of atheism that encompasses people who lack a belief in god. this is probably most atheists honestly. these are people who just have not seen the evidence yet, or maybe they were not raised religious. either way, they view all gods of all religious as concepts with no evidence to support them. kinda like santa or the tooth fairy.

strong atheism - this is the branch of atheism that encompasses people who not only don't believe in god, they also believe that there is no god. there is a distinct difference here, whereas weak atheists do not believe in god, strong atheists believe that there is no god. many point out things like the problem of evil, contradictions in holy books, the lack of a consistent definition of god, and the lack of evidence for anything supernatural.

i fall into the strong atheist category. the biblical definition of god is self-contradictory (in more than a few ways) and clearly does not exist, same with the god of islam and most other gods. all of these gods and their rules go against what other religions claim. moral claims, historical claims, etc. none of them add up. so they can't all be right. because of the lack of evidence for any of them, i think it's way more plausible that they're all wrong.

Quote from: ParkourMAN on October  4, 2011 05:58 AM
spiritual beliefs cant be bad, rationalizing evil actions through beliefs is

this isn't true at all imo. i think it might be true that spiritual belief CAN be good, but say that it CANNOT be bad is obviously false.

look at what the bible says. the bible says that we are all born bad, we're all born with original sin. this has been true for everyone since adam and eve. it's our job to go to the invisible sky man in order to cure us of our inherent evil. without doing so we will be sent to hell to be tortured forever (which is, by the way, a ridiculous idea of justice. no matter what you do in your life, what you do is finite. it could be the worst thing imaginable, but it's still a finite crime, that will not last forever. what kind of just god would think it was ok to punish any finite crime with infinite punishment? my answer is: one that is rife with contradictions and was invented by man).

this doesn't even delve in to other views of humans and human traits that the bible teaches. then look at how it is interpreted by mormons and catholics. and this is just chrstianty!

i think it is way more reasonable to say that spiritual belief could possibly be good. spiritual faith (the acceptance of something being true, knowing that there is no evidence to support it) is by definition bad. so how can it be good?

i think some spiritual beliefs like buddhism are very non-intrusive on other people. you never hear of buddhists who kill nonbelievers or buddhists who invade other countries trying to spread it. buddhists are confident enough in their own religious to leave other people alone and just focus on their own beliefs. i think this is admirable and responsible. of course, buddhism being a nontheistic religion, this is about as close as spirituality gets to atheism, but whatevs.

spiritual belief certainly has been used as justification for terrible acts by evil people, and of course, evil people can and do use whatever they want to justify their actions, even naturalistic or relativistic viewpoints (both of which are part of the worldview of a lot of atheists). but this does make spiritual belief innocent.

part of me feels im gonna get my ass beaten after this but here I go also im writing this really fuckin fast so im not actually double checking all of my arguments bahabhahbabahb

Im with scrib on this one. im prepared to believe that there is a god  but i think he may or may not give a rats ass about anything in the universe... or he just wont interact with this universe anymore for whatever reason. Hey, he can do whatever he wants right? after all hes GOD.

Is agnosticism bad? of course not. You have to ask yourself what the fuck youre being told and be honest about how you feel about it and if it makes sense

I was raised in a largely christian community and naturally my parents raised me to believe in the same things as them. things that i strongly believed and feared during part of my childhood and during catholic school. I had to put up with a lot of bullshit from many self righteous teachers, priests and people with extremely right wing ideals, associating decency, education and logiv with religion. It was bullshit. It made me skeptical about my knowledge and beliefs and kinda fucked up my worldview. I can safely say nothing killed my trust for the catholic community more than catholic church. Most of the people in there didnt even practice what they preached yet always counted with bullshit arguments to justify anything.

Yet somehow i still believe in god. you could say ive been brainwashed and i wouldnt blame you. I think that amongst the agnostics im definitelly amongst the theist side. But i have no proof and i dont feel like i need it. my thoughts are my own and I dont go around preaching people to believe the things I do.

NOW

im gonna get a bit deffensive. is religion bullshit? Believing in something just because it makes you feel good and throw away all information seems fairly silly to me and i have to agree with the agnostic/atheist posse on this one.

but Bashing religious people JUST CAUSE, calling them out in public, vandalizing places that are sacred for them or deliberatedly provoking them simply isnt cool. And in the same way religious people feel entitled to do bad things in the name of religion, some groups bash religion because they think ITS COOL. Ive been to communities where extreme poverty, lack of food and water and hopelessness is simply a situation out of control, im talking about people who literally need to build their houses out of scrap logs in the middle of nowhere with limited nails and no electricity, where the cold of winter could easily make you sick and kill you. marginated communities where people literally find no other hope than to believe in a higher power. It leaves you speechless. in conditions like that, I would just WANT to believe, and I would too... these communities are not hurting anyone and sometimes religion is the only way they can unify their strenghts and values for the good of the community. Like everything, it can be used for good or bad, and the corruption would inevitably spread in there but i think overall its better for them

I guess what im trying to say is, not all religious communities are trying to spread their fuckin beliefs troughout the rest of the world. Being an actively religious person doesnt automatically make you a fuckin idiot. id say most religious people i know are NOT creationists and dont want teachings from the bible to be teached on public schools in the US. (incidentally back in mexico they teach you both creationism and evolution along with some other reasons why life was created but they did pull of the inteligent design thing before it was called intelligent design). I will admit that I know a lot of them who are against abortion, gay marriage, etc. even inside of my own family ive been ridiculled for having opossing views.
BUT i understand why they do this. my parents, their siblings and their grandparents all come from generations when religion had a noticeably stronger pull than it probably does today. if they act like fucking assholes sometimes, try to understand its not entirely their fault.

I would say that the only straight up evil and psychopathic believers,( at least while i was still living in Mx) are chief priests, and religious people who run schools and deliberately spread hatred and intolerance towards opossing views/groups

so independently of your agnostic/theist/atheist view... please JUST BE COOL. everyone should believe whatever the fuck they want provided they dont do any harm to other people...id like to think most religious people wont.

Quote from: emanhattan on October  5, 2011 07:08 AM
I would say that the only straight up evil and psychopathic believers,( at least while i was still living in Mx) are chief priests, and religious people who run schools and deliberately spread hatred and intolerance towards opossing views/groups

this is a big part of why non-believers have a very negative image of christianity and religion in general. i look at the religious leaders of the world like the corrupt papacy of the catholic religion and their harboring of child molesters and spread of disease in africa, the political spearheads of the neoconservative movement who want to inject christianity into every orifice of govenrment, the hate speaking pastors and picketers.. those are the ones with the loudest voices.

i was a christian until was about 17. churches do some good things for communities and people. but it's a thin veil over the ignorance that is required to be preached at a church. one of the main reasons i turned away from christianity was the idea that i had some kind of moral high ground over those who didn't believe what i did, and that they all needed to be saved, and i knew something they didn't. after a while i realized it was total crap and there is no such thing. i can't be a part of an institution that prides itself on that.

then there's the aspect that we are nothing without a god. you are taught that you are born a sinner, destined to go to hell, and without god you are nothing. so when i became an atheist it was really hard at first, because your entire worldview is shattered and you feel like a piece of trash. it's a backwards way of thinking that i really think is a plague on human progress and wellbeing.

i'm not bashing everyone who is religious, though. i realize there are many different theological belief systems that don't align at all with what i am saying. but that is how i interpreted the church after many years of it being crammed into my head by the church and my school ( i went to a private christian high school). i have many friends who are deeply religious. we get along great. some of them don't even know i'm an atheist. a lot of them are really intelligent people, and have been raised in the church since they were very young, but i honestly don't believe they'd ever be religious if they weren't raised in a religious family.

but regardless of that, i will always fight against the religious who are working to push ignorance, hatred, false information and phony science, no matter how subtle or well intentioned. sometimes people's spiritual beliefs get in the way of facts, and that's never ok.

you were christian until 17?? man you're fuckin slow i had doubts about that shit when i was like 7 after my dog died and people were like "animals don't go to heaven" but that dog was a better person than most people FUCK EVERYONE

i told you when i realized i was no longer christian. i had doubts about my faith when i started going to middle school at 11. but years of "jesus camp" revivals and me not wanting to face the truth kept me a christian until 17. even then, i lived in a christian household and i couldn't fully get out of the church until i left my house for good when i was 21.

i dunno i was afraid to be referred to as an atheist until i was like 17-18ish i always called myself agnostic.


let me clear this up for you agnostic types here at TBA.

when posed with the question "do you believe in god", if you answer "yes", you're a theist. if you say anything other than "yes", even "i don't know", you're an atheist.

just to clear things up

this is because an atheist is someone who lacks a belief in a god. if you aren't sure, then you don't have a belief in a god, therefore you're an atheist.


it honestly is not as extreme of a position as people make it out to be. atheists aren't arrogant people who think that there is no chance of god existing. they just lack belief

Quote from: emanhattan on October  5, 2011 07:08 AM
Im with scrib on this one. im prepared to believe that there is a god  but i think he may or may not give a rats ass about anything in the universe... or he just wont interact with this universe anymore for whatever reason. Hey, he can do whatever he wants right? after all hes GOD.

this is referred to as deism, and i certainly think it's more plausible than christianity, but there is still no evidence for it. why would you pray to a god that doesn't do anything? why would you even bring him up in any situation? he seems totally irrelevant to me.

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Is agnosticism bad? of course not. You have to ask yourself what the fuck youre being told and be honest about how you feel about it and if it makes sense

just so you know, that statement has nothing to do with agnosticism

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I was raised in a largely christian community and naturally my parents raised me to believe in the same things as them. things that i strongly believed and feared during part of my childhood and during catholic school. I had to put up with a lot of bullshit from many self righteous teachers, priests and people with extremely right wing ideals, associating decency, education and logiv with religion. It was bullshit. It made me skeptical about my knowledge and beliefs and kinda fucked up my worldview. I can safely say nothing killed my trust for the catholic community more than catholic church. Most of the people in there didnt even practice what they preached yet always counted with bullshit arguments to justify anything.

Yet somehow i still believe in god. you could say ive been brainwashed and i wouldnt blame you. I think that amongst the agnostics im definitelly amongst the theist side. But i have no proof and i dont feel like i need it. my thoughts are my own and I dont go around preaching people to believe the things I do.

maybe "brainwashed" is too strong of a word, but i do think you're clinging to the beliefs you were raised with, for whatever reason. it's obvious you have doubts about the whole thing, but it seems that god's existence feels right or true to you. i would say, don't trust your emotions or your feelings for matters of fact. i don't expect you to buy that, but that's my advice.

Quote
im gonna get a bit deffensive. is religion bullshit? Believing in something just because it makes you feel good and throw away all information seems fairly silly to me and i have to agree with the agnostic/atheist posse on this one.

but Bashing religious people JUST CAUSE, calling them out in public, vandalizing places that are sacred for them or deliberatedly provoking them simply isnt cool. And in the same way religious people feel entitled to do bad things in the name of religion, some groups bash religion because they think ITS COOL. Ive been to communities where extreme poverty, lack of food and water and hopelessness is simply a situation out of control, im talking about people who literally need to build their houses out of scrap logs in the middle of nowhere with limited nails and no electricity, where the cold of winter could easily make you sick and kill you. marginated communities where people literally find no other hope than to believe in a higher power. It leaves you speechless. in conditions like that, I would just WANT to believe, and I would too... these communities are not hurting anyone and sometimes religion is the only way they can unify their strenghts and values for the good of the community. Like everything, it can be used for good or bad, and the corruption would inevitably spread in there but i think overall its better for them

I guess what im trying to say is, not all religious communities are trying to spread their fuckin beliefs troughout the rest of the world. Being an actively religious person doesnt automatically make you a fuckin idiot. id say most religious people i know are NOT creationists and dont want teachings from the bible to be teached on public schools in the US. (incidentally back in mexico they teach you both creationism and evolution along with some other reasons why life was created but they did pull of the inteligent design thing before it was called intelligent design). I will admit that I know a lot of them who are against abortion, gay marriage, etc. even inside of my own family ive been ridiculled for having opossing views.
BUT i understand why they do this. my parents, their siblings and their grandparents all come from generations when religion had a noticeably stronger pull than it probably does today. if they act like fucking assholes sometimes, try to understand its not entirely their fault.

i sympathize with what you're saying, but the question "is religion bullshit" has to do with whether or not what any religion says is factual or accurate. whether or not it "does good" has nothing to do with whether or not it is true. as principal ghoul-man is fond of saying, "there's nothing more powerful than the truth!"

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so independently of your agnostic/theist/atheist view... please JUST BE COOL. everyone should believe whatever the fuck they want provided they dont do any harm to other people...id like to think most religious people wont.

and lastly, this. i really don't believe this. i think people should be legally ALLOWED to hold whatever beliefs they want, but nobody OUGHT to believe in whatever they want without any reason, justification or evidence for what they think. they shouldn't just think whatever they want, even if the ideas are self contradictory or contradict obvious truths.

you should be allowed to believe what you want, sure. we don't need thought police. but SHOULD you just believe whatever you want? i don't think so.

This falls into the same category as "Do you believe in Aliens".
It's not really rational to say "Yes" since there is no evidence for them existing except personal encounters. Which may or may not be lies or illusions.
It's not rational to say deny their existence either, since we are alive on a planet, and there are millions of other worlds.
I've read the Bible, Quran, Tibetan book of death, Egyptian book of death, Sumerian creation story, and the Bhagavad Gītā and don't believe in any earthly mono or poly theistic God. There are holes in all of them.
However it's a burden to deny God itself because the definition has such wide range that it might fit anything from a simple force to a reinforced intelligence that once bound the four fundamental laws together. It's not a fact that it doesn't exist? But it isn't a negative such as a Pink Unicorn which many fall into the trap of accusing theists of also believing. Which is probably because they were influenced into believing God has to have an anthropomorphic body to begin with.
The real question is: is the natural actually unnatural. And it's unanswerable.

my thoughts on all of this:

I Want To Yiff The Sh*t Out Of you. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ll0ch3YfUk#ws)

Quote from: BlueScarab on October  5, 2011 08:12 PM
The real question is: is the natural actually unnatural. And it's unanswerable.

what a cool question!

Quote from: rtil on October  4, 2011 10:52 AM

Quote from: Sinitron on October  4, 2011 08:46 AM

Quote from: ParkourMAN on October  4, 2011 05:58 AM
spiritual beliefs cant be bad, rationalizing evil actions through beliefs is

good job this is a very valid statement everyone should read this so i am quoting it

at the risk of turning this into yet another debate thread i'm going to have to disagree with his statement. spiritual beliefs can often lead to people being indirectly hurt out of naive faith. for example, spiritual beliefs may cause someone to turn away from modern medicine in favor of healing through prayer, or thinking starving children need a holy book instead of food - and while they thought their intentions were good, people can easily end up dead because of them.

but theyre still just beliefs, and misleading/manipulative actions are what cause those beliefs. ergo the action is evil not the belief.

i just dont think religion is absolutely bad. sure it can be an excuse for people to justify stupid or arrogant ideas with no regard for modern culture/circumstance. but at the same time having faith in something can guide people with no other direction to having a better life.

spirituality can work as moral guidelines for some, or a crutch for others. all the same its still a matter of how you interpret and act on the basis of your faith that makes it good or bad.

Quote from: ParkourMAN on October  6, 2011 12:39 AM

Quote from: rtil on October  4, 2011 10:52 AM

Quote from: Sinitron on October  4, 2011 08:46 AM

Quote from: ParkourMAN on October  4, 2011 05:58 AM
spiritual beliefs cant be bad, rationalizing evil actions through beliefs is

good job this is a very valid statement everyone should read this so i am quoting it

at the risk of turning this into yet another debate thread i'm going to have to disagree with his statement. spiritual beliefs can often lead to people being indirectly hurt out of naive faith. for example, spiritual beliefs may cause someone to turn away from modern medicine in favor of healing through prayer, or thinking starving children need a holy book instead of food - and while they thought their intentions were good, people can easily end up dead because of them.

but theyre still just beliefs, and misleading/manipulative actions are what cause those beliefs. ergo the action is evil not the belief.

if you see it that way then i'm not sure you entirely understand the psyche behind religion. there's a fine line between "spiritual beliefs" and what people simply want to believe and subsequently justify. anything "spiritual" should be cause for immediate skepticism, because it's really just a mental workaround for what people want to hear. people have used god and spirituality to justify all kinds of crimes against humanity over the course of history. they can be evil, because they are not divine.

now a serious moral concept:

morality is formed by popular belief. there is not any way to change it.

if a group of 10,000 people find the idea of rape morally acceptable, and they gather together, they cant be stopped by authority. they will rape whoever or whatever they please.

that, and they can petition.


whats right and wrong has changed since the beginning of time, it will always change if people all like future conceptual ideas.


i'm not atheist, nihilistic, or agnostic, but i believe that people will find their own ways to understand human psychology and existence philosophy.

nothing is right or wrong. stop asking unanswerable philosophical questions.

Quote from: Pants, the terrible on October  6, 2011 01:15 AM
i'm not nihilistic

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nothing is right or wrong. stop asking unanswerable philosophical questions.

you might want to re-evaluate yourself

Quote from: Pants, the terrible on October  6, 2011 01:15 AM
now a serious moral concept:

morality is formed by popular belief. there is not any way to change it.

if a group of 10,000 people find the idea of rape morally acceptable, and they gather together, they cant be stopped by authority. they will rape whoever or whatever they please.

the fuck are you talking about

I created my own religion to follow

Quote from: Pants, the terrible on October  6, 2011 01:15 AM
if a group of 10,000 people find the idea of rape morally acceptable, and they gather together, they cant be stopped by authority. they will rape whoever or whatever they please.

but just because a majority of people or a large group does so that doesnt make it right. And mind you its usually the authorities that instigate or enforce those lines of thought.

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i'm not atheist, nihilistic, or agnostic

so you ARE religious

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nothing is right or wrong. stop asking unanswerable philosophical questions.

ok then. if you ARE part of a religious group, then you kinda have to recognize and live by that religions terms of right and wrong???. just a thought.

fuck it ill just join redms church

Quote from: Pants, the terrible on October  6, 2011 01:15 AM
now a serious moral concept:

morality is formed by popular belief. there is not any way to change it.

if a group of 10,000 people find the idea of rape morally acceptable, and they gather together, they cant be stopped by authority. they will rape whoever or whatever they please.

that, and they can petition.


whats right and wrong has changed since the beginning of time, it will always change if people all like future conceptual ideas.


i'm not atheist, nihilistic, or agnostic, but i believe that people will find their own ways to understand human psychology and existence philosophy.

nothing is right or wrong. stop asking unanswerable philosophical questions.

the ideas expressed in this post are total bullshit, and are really confusing if you do not consider yourself a nihilist.

first you say that morality is formed by popular belief and that there is no way to change it, then two paragraphs down you say that morality has changed since the beginning of time. obviously these two statements are contradictory.

in the end, you assert that all moral claims are relative, and then you assert that all truth is relative, without once explaining how anyone could ever know or understand this to be true if nothing can actually be true. one of the main reasons that no philosophers actually believe in the shit that you're spouting is because it makes absolutely no sense, causes more problems that it solves, and is supported by absolutely nothing. and the fact that so many psuedo-philosopher kids buy into it makes it even worse.


i think that this is a fundamental understanding of how knowledge of anything works. knowledge is gained over time, it builds and it evolves. we are never spoon fed the truth. scientific knowledge has changed and shaped over time, after new evidence is found that dismisses or changes old conclusions. we once thought the earth was flat, we now know that the earth is round. we once thought that we were created by a higher power, we now know that we evolved over the course of hundreds of millions of years. etc etc. the same is true with morality, it has developed as our knowledge has evolved. our understanding of the world, our place in it, how societies and cultures succeed and function, the causes and effects of certain actions, etc etc, has lead to a more developed moral understanding.

it's very obvious that there are correct and incorrect answers to moral questions. and there may be many equally correct answers to moral questions, but that doesn't mean that there are no wrong answers. there may be many possible answers for "what food should i eat for dinner?" but there is nonetheless a very obvious distinction between food and poison.

Quote from: ParkourMAN on October  6, 2011 12:45 AM
i just dont think religion is absolutely bad. sure it can be an excuse for people to justify stupid or arrogant ideas with no regard for modern culture/circumstance. but at the same time having faith in something can guide people with no other direction to having a better life.

spirituality can work as moral guidelines for some, or a crutch for others. all the same its still a matter of how you interpret and act on the basis of your faith that makes it good or bad.

i mean what you're saying has some merit, but i think the way that you're phrasing it is what is confusing the issue. first you say that spiritual belief CAN'T be bad, which is silly. then you say that religious belief is not absolutely bad, which is reasonable and probably justifiable. it's where you're drawing the absolutes in the phrasing that makes or breaks your argument

however, i still completely disagree that spirituality can work as a moral guideline. i mean, spirituality is supposed to be reflective of something that is supernatural. if it is supernatural, it is not natural. how could something that is supernatural tell us anything about how we should or should not be or act in the natural world? how would anything supernatural even understand the natural world, if we can't understand the supernatural world? it seems like they're two separate worlds (let's just skip over the fact that there is no evidence for a separate, supernatural world), so how could either one know anything about the other? and how could either one tell a person in the other one how to lead a good "life"? (who knows if life even exists in this supposed supernatural world?)

unless you're just referring to spiritual belief as in beliefs that are purported by books like the bible, in which case i'd say that the bad certainly outweighs the good. claiming that the bible is a good moral guideline is like saying a cluttered, weed-infested garden is well-maintained. sure, there may be a few pretty flowers, but overall it's pretty bad.

Quote from: trent bortknob on October  6, 2011 02:48 AM
the ideas expressed in this post are total bullshit

it's a post by dante

pseudo-intellectual bullshit is pretty much a given

being an antihumanist makes things pretty easy

what is supernatural in a spiritual context is essentially just what lies beyond human understanding. so to accept the limitations of humanity's perspective should ideally be the basis for any religious belief.

i thought the definition of supernatural meant something that was not natural i.e. did not occur in the natural world. i mean if we're defining it as something beyond human understanding, it gets hard to define what is supernatural and what isn't. at one point the moon was supernatural but now we know a lot about it and understand how it works and where it came from through natural processes. how do we know when something is beyond human understanding?

Quote from: put on October  6, 2011 03:05 AM
being an antihumanist makes things pretty easy

your best post. +1 pizza point

i love your responses, but i do believe in a diety. why not?

oh, and i have yet to hear 1 good example of why popular morality does not govern all morality.

if everyone but you thought that killing dogs with an axe just because they thought it was humorous, and you were raised to believe it was, is it right or wrong?

Quote from: trent bortknob on October  6, 2011 05:26 AM
i thought the definition of supernatural meant something that was not natural i.e. did not occur in the natural world. i mean if we're defining it as something beyond human understanding, it gets hard to define what is supernatural and what isn't. at one point the moon was supernatural but now we know a lot about it and understand how it works and where it came from through natural processes. how do we know when something is beyond human understanding?

supernatural doesnt mean something that isnt natural, because then my breasts would be supernatural because i got implants. the prefix "super" doesn't imply difference or even absence of, it actually just means above.
so aside from silly semantics, the point is that not everyone knows everything about what happens in the universe and why it happens. even to this day when some religious beliefs seem absurd - they're all still based on believing there is more to life than just what we know as a species. that's what faith is.

CAN'T YOU SEE THAT YOU'RE SMOTHERING ME

HOLDING TOO TIGHTLY

AFRAID TO LOSE CONTROL

BECAUSE EVERYTHING THAT YOU THOUGHT I WOULD BE

HAS FALLEN APART

RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU

In time even father won't be able to contain me...

well there certainly is more to life than what we know as a species. that's not faith, that's intellectual humility and acknowledging that we don't know everything that there is to know. that doesn't mean that there are things that work outside of the natural workings of the universe.

faith, by definition, is the acceptance of a claim or idea with no evidence to support it. any idea that anything happens outside of the established working of natural processes (or perhaps new ones that could be discovered) have to be based on faith, and are by definition irrational.

and no, i didn't say that supernatural meant "unnatural". what is considered "natural" and "unnatural" is not easy to decide, and is not relevant to this discussion. for example, many people claim that computers are unnatural. but think about it: computers were invented by humans, and humans exist in nature. humans used the nature around them to invent and use the computer. how is this unnatural? this is how we make houses and cook food too (although obviously computers are more complex and serve different purposes). sure, computers don't come about in nature without humans, but beaver dams don't come about without beavers and i don't think anyone is claiming that beaver dams aren't natural.

so when you say that breast implants aren't natural, it's saying that they aren't the real, original breasts that one was born with. just like some people are natural blonde and some people just bleach their hair. it's sort of an equivocation, this form of "unnatural" has a different definition than the "unnatural" that was mentioned before. so that's just a misunderstanding of what natural means.

supernatural would imply that something is above the workings of the natural world, NOT just above our grasp or understanding. like i said before, defining it that way means that everything we didn't understand before was supernatural, and now that we understand it better it is no longer supernatural, it's just natural. how do we know what is beyond our understanding, and how do we know whether or not something that is beyond our understanding is actually supernatural? many people thought the sun was a supernatural, powerful deity in the past. now, that is no longer the case. people thought that other planets were gods at some time. now those things are not beyond our understanding. so, those things are not supernatural, they have always been working in a natural way, and they came about through natural processes. now we know that, and we didn't know that before, hundreds to thousands of years ago. the only thing that has changed is us and our understanding, not the actual universe.

so, supernatural being defined as anything beyond our understanding is kinda silly. but i don't think most people are of that position. most people say that the supernatural is just beyond our understanding, but it doesn't encompass EVERYTHING that we don't understand. the problems with all things supernatural is that we can't even have a real discussion about it because no one can really make a coherent and agreed upon definition of what exists supernaturally, and beyond that, nobody has any evidence that anything has or ever did exist independent of natural causes or natural law. miracles, gods, fairies, demons, angels, ghosts, not a single one of those things has ever had a shred of evidence to demonstrate that it exists. the ideas are just superstition, there are silly, and belief in them is irrational.

Quote from: Pants, the terrible on October  6, 2011 01:58 PM
i love your responses, but i do believe in a diety. why not?

that's totally fine, but some people actually care if their beliefs are true. if you don't care, you can believe in whatever made up deity that you want.

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oh, and i have yet to hear 1 good example of why popular morality does not govern all morality.

if everyone but you thought that killing dogs with an axe just because they thought it was humorous, and you were raised to believe it was, is it right or wrong?

first off, truth is not established by the majority. this is true with anything. like i said, at one point, the majority of people believed the earth was flat. but the truth shone through. it's not like we just all changed our minds for no reason. there was evidence to back it up, and we slowly began to accept it. most americans apparently believe that christ will have a second coming, and that the earth was created in 6 days 6,000 years ago. but this is obviously not true, even though most people in this country apparently believe it.

and moving on to moral ideas, if they were determined by popular belief, it seems unlikely that they could change so radically. i mean, look at slavery, discrimination, sexism, etc. it's not like the majority became black people or women. we're still dominated by white, christian males. what changed is our understanding. it's very obvious that it is immoral to treat other groups as inherently below you. it doesn't work well as a society and is not conducive to human flourishing. it is damaging, limiting, and overall just not a good idea. it's easy to establish that is immoral with almost no intellectual hoohah, just imagine that you lived in a society where white males were oppressed for no other reason than they are white males. you would be pretty unhappy, and it wouldn't seem fair.

i cannot answer you why it took so long for people to wake up and realize that this was the case, but i can assure you that popular belief does not assert moral truths (although i will concede that popular belief does have a notable effect on people's perception of the truth. this is certainly true. but i think that moral, scientific, and historical truths exist independently of popular or personal belief).

fuck you sinister are those linkin park lyrics

fuck

yeah more or less i thought i would make a meaningful contribution to a meaningful thread

aside from the tangential novel you just wrote about the definition of the word supernatural, faith isnt synonymous with irrationality. religions with irrevocably almighty deities tend to teeter on the border of fantasy, mostly because the initial beliefs are skewed over time and the values of the religion are stubborn to adapt to the ever-changing rules of modern culture. having faith is only irrational if it defines and regulates every one of your actions. its like a police officer who goes out of his way to give tickets to litterers, jaywalkers, and anyone who he sees driving more than five miles over the speed limit. that's absolute belief in the law. which i doubt many cops actually practice.

that's not faith, it's blind faith. there is a difference.

the opinion of slavery changed because of a war over popular belief (and unfair taxation...)

again, my point is that opinions/morals will change via popular opinion alone. rebels even have to conform to it because they are specifically rebelling against the idea, so they are accepting its plausibility, but hindering to accept it.

morality is all about who you were raised around, how you were brought up, who you were living with, and the society forced around you. your decisions are all completely based on this society until you reach another, and understand their culture. the diverging of cultures, ideas, and morals all lead up to one gigantic agreement: try not to physically, psychologically, or emotionally damage your fellow man or yourself. that's all it will amount to.

morals are just a bunch of questions that lead up to it. right and wrong are still infinitely debatable because the only signs of perfection are from deities we "make up". its sort of funny how such a simple idea of perfection and small set of moral codes have completely altered every society on the face of the planet indefinitely...

can we try and avoid the 'pseudo-intellectual bullshit' and try to stay on topic pants

So I guess in the end we can all agree that religion is ok but following it blindly (or any moral code, really)  is dangerous and somewhat selfish?
in other words agnosticism is... good. yea

ps im trying to apply that question to religion only I believe in the supernatural/god/aliens/shit all in different ways.

Quote from: Pants, the terrible on October  6, 2011 05:43 PM
the opinion of slavery changed because of a war over popular belief (and unfair taxation...)

again, my point is that opinions/morals will change via popular opinion alone. rebels even have to conform to it because they are specifically rebelling against the idea, so they are accepting its plausibility, but hindering to accept it.

but the south didn't change their opinion of slavery just because they lost a war. the only reason they changed was because they had to. even today, almost 2 centuries after the civil war, the south is still a cesspool of racism and racially charged crimes. they don't care what the "popular opinion" is.

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morality is all about who you were raised around, how you were brought up, who you were living with, and the society forced around you. your decisions are all completely based on this society until you reach another, and understand their culture. the diverging of cultures, ideas, and morals all lead up to one gigantic agreement: try not to physically, psychologically, or emotionally damage your fellow man or yourself. that's all it will amount to.

what are you basing this off of?

Quote
morals are just a bunch of questions that lead up to it. right and wrong are still infinitely debatable because the only signs of perfection are from deities we "make up". its sort of funny how such a simple idea of perfection and small set of moral codes have completely altered every society on the face of the planet indefinitely...

actually, most deities are very imperfect and show human weakness.. the god of the bible - for example - is vengeful, wrathful, envious, narcissistic and by all means a despot of his "chosen" people who slaughtered millions. he was designed this way as a tool of fear to control the people who followed christianity, and that's how the church has controlled and oppressed its followers for over two millennium. which begs the question, what is perfection? i think perfection can be found far more easily in nature than in a psychotic, two-faced manmade god, which leads me to believe that humans don't know what perfection is. as a consequence, morality can be a tough subject for humans.

morality comes from society, yes, but you have to remember that humans are also animals, and we are a social animal, in that we cannot survive very well on our own and do best in groups. we need eachother to survive, and so we are instinctively kind to others and have a generally nurturing mentality. anyone who deviates from this is generally considered malevolent and groups that deviate from this are generally classified as cults. in any intelligent (not necessarily modern - see the ancient greeks) society, you see a free people thriving and working together towards the common goal of human progress.

it's not as complicated as you make it out to be. it's in our DNA.

Heres another idea, IF god exists chances are he would fuckin hate the chrisian church for doing all the things they did IN HIS NAME and we've probably been sold an incorrect depiction of him.

OR maybe he is as cruel as he sounds in the bible and can get away with it because ykno bein GOD and all.

Quote from: Pants, the terrible on October  6, 2011 05:43 PM
your decisions are all completely based on this society until you reach another, and understand their culture. the diverging of cultures, ideas, and morals all lead up to one gigantic agreement: try not to physically, psychologically, or emotionally damage your fellow man or yourself. that's all it will amount to.

tell that to the aztecs!
(https://thebackalleys.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.paranormalknowledge.com%2Farticles%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F03%2Faztec-human-sacrifices1.jpg&hash=df58a9830194792e33dcd67593719a6d8fe37cca)

although to their credit they were trying to sustain the universe so idk

Quote from: emanhattan on October  6, 2011 07:40 PM
Heres another idea, IF god exists chances are he would fuckin hate the chrisian church for doing all the things they did IN HIS NAME and we've probably been sold an incorrect depiction of him.

OR maybe he is as cruel as he sounds in the bible and can get away with it because ykno bein GOD and all.

well the bible is supposed to be the infallible word of god , is it not? if this is to be assumed, the god of the old testament did everything that the bible says he did, and all the old testament laws were created by god and used by his people during that time.

you also have to consider this - how could god be mad at anyone but himself for human's depictions of what his church was supposed to be like? he obviously left it entirely up to people to do this for him, because he certainly has not made himself apparent to anyone for over 2,000 years now... so he only has himself to blame if humans have ruined what he envisioned his church to be, because he's never here to fix it!

imagine if god made himself obviously clear to all the people on earth - what an amazing revelation that would be to mankind. but no, he's been gone and dead for a long time now, and i think it's high time christians stop pretending he's going to come back.

nuke islam

Quote from: rtil on October  6, 2011 07:53 PM

Quote from: emanhattan on October  6, 2011 07:40 PM
OR maybe he is as cruel as he sounds in the bible and can get away with it because ykno bein GOD and all.

well the bible is supposed to be the infallible word of god , is it not?

Yesss and No
it would be if it wasnt controlled by a comittee and voted on what stuff we get to see and we dont. and which moments are supossed to be taken literally and which are supossed to be taken figuratively. I started giving a lot of thought to that when I was roughly 11.
its the word of god but you can dismiss it pretty much all you want, provided you dont get into jesus/ressurection territory.

this is a bit off topic but its a fun example. back when I was like 12 I got suspended for accidentally, (and really I had no intentions to cause an actual fight) asking the teacher in which day did god create the dinosaurs and in which one he decided to kill them which kinda doesnt compute. Again, in mexico not even catholic schools are big on that creationist bullshit but she took it as an offense. ocassionally this kind of stuff happened which made me feel less and less inclined to buy into all that stuff.

tbh my faith would probably have remained a lot stronger if people who teach you religion just admitted they dont have all the answers. "Hey padre where do aborted kids go to if they die before having been baptized?" to limbo wtf. Just say you DONT KNOW DICK man fuck. id understand, i mean theres no possile way you could know that!!! if you make shit up and then get proven wrong then youll have even less credibility than before.

i think the reason why they feel forced to make stuff up is because the human mind works in a very funny way. I dont thinkmost people subconciously want the truth. they want ANSWERS, any answer as long as it gives them a sense of security, even false secutiry, will do. people demand answers and in that sense religion provides. and its a shame that it does.

and I STILL believe in god. i know my logic is backwards as fuck but i just wanted to share a few thoughts for those of you who are on the atheist side of this buisness and havent necessarily been exposed to it.

ffuuuuu

sorry for the brainstorm

Quote from: Sinitron on October  6, 2011 08:04 PM
nuke islam

Quote from: emanhattan on October  6, 2011 08:51 PM

Quote from: rtil on October  6, 2011 07:53 PM

Quote from: emanhattan on October  6, 2011 07:40 PM
OR maybe he is as cruel as he sounds in the bible and can get away with it because ykno bein GOD and all.

well the bible is supposed to be the infallible word of god , is it not?

Yesss and No
it would be if it wasnt controlled by a comittee and voted on what stuff we get to see and we dont. and which moments are supossed to be taken literally and which are supossed to be taken figuratively. I started giving a lot of thought to that when I was roughly 11.
its the word of god but you can dismiss it pretty much all you want, provided you dont get into jesus/ressurection territory.

i was more talking along the lines of the old testament laws where god supported slavery, rape = forced marriage, stoning children, etc, as well as the many tribes that god ordered his own people to slaughter, women and children included. are those taken literally or figuratively? they seem like literal biblical history to me.

Quote
this is a bit off topic but its a fun example. back when I was like 12 I got suspended for accidentally, (and really I had no intentions to cause an actual fight) asking the teacher in which day did god create the dinosaurs and in which one he decided to kill them which kinda doesnt compute. Again, in mexico not even catholic schools are big on that creationist bullshit but she took it as an offense. ocassionally this kind of stuff happened which made me feel less and less inclined to buy into all that stuff.

tbh my faith would probably have remained a lot stronger if people who teach you religion just admitted they dont have all the answers. "Hey padre where do aborted kids go to if they die before having been baptized?" to limbo wtf. Just say you DONT KNOW DICK man fuck. id understand, i mean theres no possile way you could know that!!! if you make shit up and then get proven wrong then youll have even less credibility than before.

well you're right - they don't know anything, they can only claim to know, because it is impossible to know. how can you have any faith in a divine being who reveals nothing to his people?

Quote
i think the reason why they feel forced to make stuff up is because the human mind works in a very funny way. I dont thinkmost people subconciously want the truth. they want ANSWERS, any answer as long as it gives them a sense of security, even false secutiry, will do. people demand answers and in that sense religion provides. and its a shame that it does.

and I STILL believe in god. i know my logic is backwards as fuck but i just wanted to share a few thoughts for those of you who are on the atheist side of this buisness and havent necessarily been exposed to it.

they're forced to make up stuff because they realize people will lose faith if someone doesn't claim to have divine insight on the matter.

i don't really understand why you believe in god when you seem to understand that your entire religion is a sham.

Quote from: rtil on October  6, 2011 09:15 PM
i don't really understand why you believe in god when you seem to understand that your entire religion is a sham.

hmmm well i guess that does deserve a bit of an explanation.
i believe as humans we dont have a complete pereception of all existing phenomena. I have this theory.... i think the relationship between humans and god is similar to the relationhip between a blind man and images. the blind man can probably feel,smell and hear everything that happens around him, but his mind is remote from the concept of an image, and colors, and values, and visual information altogether. and he can only assume it exists or perhaps learn from it from someone else... but the person telling him this is also blind... that is kind of how i feel about the whole thing.

all are welcome in the church of redm

join today and get a free TBA TROPHY with PIZZA POINT

Quote from: emanhattan on October  6, 2011 09:45 PM

Quote from: rtil on October  6, 2011 09:15 PM
i don't really understand why you believe in god when you seem to understand that your entire religion is a sham.

hmmm well i guess that does deserve a bit of an explanation.
i believe as humans we dont have a complete pereception of all existing phenomena. I have this theory.... i think the relationship between humans and god is similar to the relationhip between a blind man and images. the blind man can probably feel,smell and hear everything that happens around him, but his mind is remote from the concept of an image, and colors, and values, and visual information altogether. and he can only assume it exists or perhaps learn from it from someone else... but the person telling him this is also blind... that is kind of how i feel about the whole thing.

you're correct that humans don't have perception of everything. there are things that we cannot see with our naked eye or can't comprehend or compute with our minds. but we use technology to extend our perception, and that is how we learn the workings of the universe, and also how we discover more questions to answer. this is how we have functioned since the dawn of man. what does god contribute to this? nothing.. if the answer to everything was "god did it", what's the point?

i'm not sure what kind of god you believe in , but if it's the god of the bible - an intelligent, "creator" god - there is no case for his existence. there is no intelligence in the design of the universe and life. nature has no goal - it only evolves and reacts to what is around it.

Quote from: rtil on October  6, 2011 10:30 PM
i'm not sure what kind of god you believe in

me neither

Quote from: emanhattan on October  6, 2011 07:40 PM
Heres another idea, IF god exists chances are he would fuckin hate the chrisian church for doing all the things they did IN HIS NAME and we've probably been sold an incorrect depiction of him.

OR maybe he is as cruel as he sounds in the bible and can get away with it because ykno bein GOD and all.

Quote from: Pants, the terrible on October  6, 2011 05:43 PM
your decisions are all completely based on this society until you reach another, and understand their culture. the diverging of cultures, ideas, and morals all lead up to one gigantic agreement: try not to physically, psychologically, or emotionally damage your fellow man or yourself. that's all it will amount to.

tell that to the aztecs!
(https://thebackalleys.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.paranormalknowledge.com%2Farticles%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F03%2Faztec-human-sacrifices1.jpg&hash=df58a9830194792e33dcd67593719a6d8fe37cca)

although to their credit they were trying to sustain the universe so idk

best.

post.

ever.

but honestly, the south is actually not very segregated rtil. in fact if anything, the only people segregating these days are blacks who dont want to conform to white society. government benifits are high enough for any person to escape poverty and find a way to make a living. generally its just because they want to drain tax money to buy new vehicles and drugs. i'm being realistic based on living in theodore alabama for 6 years. good fuckity lord. i mean, there is blatant white racism as well (read above), but its based on both sides creating a central image of an enemy race. very little of it these days really.

oh, and i still stand by the fact that popular morality changes based on who has the power. whoever can create a law can convince the following generation of it's impact on their lives by enforcing such a law. the war on drugs convinced millions upon millions that drugs are "bad" without teaching them any positive or negative points to them. it actually created a "good vs. bad" scenario of morality, where some would experience the drugs, and some wouldn't. it just created a moral standard that hadn't yet been adressed until the legal system grabbed hold of it.

ex: we drink and think opium is a dangerous drug morally and legally, while contrasting in Saudi Arabia, they smoke opium and inject heroin, while they believe drinking is a dangerous drug morally and legally. its all culture based. morals are never defined without society to do so.

right and wrong are still unanswerable conceptual questions without something to put them into a solid perspective. the power is generally other people agreeing with you or disagreeing with you. religions are simply clans of people agreeing with a certain concept, if thats not blatantly obvious.

oh, and god is an idea of perfection. perfection isn't all good or bad. those are just concepts that were developed to keep us from harming one another or ourselves. perfection is the ability to give guidance towards these concepts in such a way that there will be a sizable conglomeration to each, giving people choice, understanding, and their own opinions of this being. perfection is an idea, not concrete.

in fact, the entire fact that we are typing these paragraphs is proving that there is physical response to the idea of these beings. there has always been physical response to these, and thats where these ideas directly affect us the most prominently. oh well, i'm getting into simple philosophy now.

feel free to waste more time on this thing ;)

Quote from: Pants, the terrible on October  7, 2011 04:39 AM
oh, and i still stand by the fact that popular morality changes based on who has the power.

that's because you're a fucking moron

trent, more name calling will just get me to tattle to the teacher and youll have to do to detention! naaah naah

Quote from: emanhattan on October  6, 2011 09:45 PM

Quote from: rtil on October  6, 2011 09:15 PM
i don't really understand why you believe in god when you seem to understand that your entire religion is a sham.

hmmm well i guess that does deserve a bit of an explanation.
i believe as humans we dont have a complete pereception of all existing phenomena. I have this theory.... i think the relationship between humans and god is similar to the relationhip between a blind man and images. the blind man can probably feel,smell and hear everything that happens around him, but his mind is remote from the concept of an image, and colors, and values, and visual information altogether. and he can only assume it exists or perhaps learn from it from someone else... but the person telling him this is also blind... that is kind of how i feel about the whole thing.

certainly we don't have a completely full understanding of everything. currently there is plenty that we do not understand. the problem comes when you start inserting your god wherever there are gaps in knowledge, or assuming that because there are gaps in knowledge, that that means that there is there is something totally beyond our understanding.

there are probably things that we will never know. some planets are so far away that the light that is traveling to us and causing us to perceive them is so far away that what we're actually seeing is billions of years old. did any planets that far away support life? we will probably never know. even if we could travel to the place that they are, they probably don't even exist anymore. this is just one example.

that certainly is humbling, at least in my opinion. but where does god come in? i view the concepts of god in a totally different light. and even you said you're not sure what kind of god you believe in. if you have no clue what type of god might exist, why even bother worrying about whether or not there is one at all?

i don't want to be insulting, i really don't, but i feel that you're clinging to the concept of god because that is how you were raised or because for some reason, you want there to be one. you want to believe in god but you know that there are so many problems with the religions that exist. the desire to believe in god is there and you're trying to substantiate it with a reasonable idea of what god might exist. this is just my view, so please correct me if i'm wrong, but you really have to consider how silly it is to define a god through the holes in religious logic. it makes so much more sense that there is no god at all.

but i really don't want to seem condescending, because i used to be just like this. i went through a phase where i did not want to be called an atheist even though i did not believe in god. i was afraid of abandoning god or being closed to the possibility, i was afraid of seeming arrogant, i was afraid of being looked down upon by friends and family. i was worried that i could be wrong and that i could wind up in hell for not believing. i spent a long time just not thinking about it, trying to remain totally neutral and referring to myself as an agnostic (i thought that an agnostic was someone who "didn't know" or "didn't care").

you ought to read the book "godless" by dan barker. it tells the story of a evangelical christian preacher (who actually learned fluent spanish and did a lot of preaching in mexico) who became an atheist later in his life (and is now head of the freedom from religion foundation). he talks about his issues with it and many of the arguments for and against god. it's a surprisingly good book that is both philosophically sophisticated, humorous, and overall interesting. i think you would benefit greatly from reading it.

Quote from: Pants, the terrible on October  7, 2011 06:16 AM
trent, more name calling will just get me to tattle to the teacher and youll have to do to detention! naaah naah

i'm not going to humor you with a debate because no matter what anyone says you just regurgitate the same baseless opinions. i don't need to waste my time writing fucking essays to someone as arrogant and closed-minded as yourself. and anyway, you're probably just trolling. either that or you are really, really stupid.

Quote from: Pants, the terrible on October  7, 2011 04:39 AM
but honestly, the south is actually not very segregated rtil.

tell that to the rest of the civilized world and they will laugh in your face

Quotein fact if anything, the only people segregating these days are blacks who dont want to conform to white society.

wow

Quotegovernment benifits are high enough for any person to escape poverty and find a way to make a living.

i'm guessing you're still living comfy with your mommy and/or daddy because this is so hilariously wrong i can't even begin to tell you. welfare will buy you possibly the poorest state of living you can imagine at best. supporting a family on welfare alone is near impossible.

Quotegenerally its just because they want to drain tax money to buy new vehicles and drugs. i'm being realistic based on living in theodore alabama for 6 years. good fuckity lord. i mean, there is blatant white racism as well (read above), but its based on both sides creating a central image of an enemy race. very little of it these days really.

well when you're in a state of poverty in the shithole of america with poor education, what do you expect? that part of the united states has been torn apart by racism. it's up to the new generation on both sides of the aisle to change things obviously, but clearly you're no different than rest of them.

Quote
oh, and i still stand by the fact that popular morality changes based on who has the power. whoever can create a law can convince the following generation of it's impact on their lives by enforcing such a law. the war on drugs convinced millions upon millions that drugs are "bad" without teaching them any positive or negative points to them. it actually created a "good vs. bad" scenario of morality, where some would experience the drugs, and some wouldn't. it just created a moral standard that hadn't yet been adressed until the legal system grabbed hold of it.

ex: we drink and think opium is a dangerous drug morally and legally, while contrasting in Saudi Arabia, they smoke opium and inject heroin, while they believe drinking is a dangerous drug morally and legally. its all culture based. morals are never defined without society to do so.

right and wrong are still unanswerable conceptual questions without something to put them into a solid perspective. the power is generally other people agreeing with you or disagreeing with you. religions are simply clans of people agreeing with a certain concept, if thats not blatantly obvious.

sure, there are gray areas of morality, mostly coinciding with ignorance, but what about tougher concepts like, is it ok to torture another human being? kill someone for their property? should rape be a punishable crime? i think it would be difficult to argue that these are moral gray areas in every part of the civilized world.

Quoteoh, and god is an idea of perfection. perfection isn't all good or bad. those are just concepts that were developed to keep us from harming one another or ourselves. perfection is the ability to give guidance towards these concepts in such a way that there will be a sizable conglomeration to each, giving people choice, understanding, and their own opinions of this being. perfection is an idea, not concrete.

then you should have been clear from that at the get go, because most gods of monotheistic religions are not an image of perfection.

and i guess you didn't really read my part of the post that explained why humans act in the way you described. that or you're completely ignoring it. because it has nothing to do with perfection. it has everything to do with survival - it is an animal instinct.

Quote
in fact, the entire fact that we are typing these paragraphs is proving that there is physical response to the idea of these beings. there has always been physical response to these, and thats where these ideas directly affect us the most prominently. oh well, i'm getting into simple philosophy now.

something you've demonstrated you don't understand very well.

Quote
feel free to waste more time on this thing ;)

right back atchya

Quote from: Pants, the terrible on October  7, 2011 04:39 AM

but honestly, the south is actually not very segregated rtil. in fact if anything, the only people segregating these days are blacks who dont want to conform to white society.

(https://thebackalleys.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.threadbombing.com%2Fdata%2Fmedia%2F2%2F687fea91677be9103defb8dc0b97e8b7.gif&hash=366db707a2b1cea16ade14d3bee6b44c5a58317b)

Quote
government benifits are high enough for any person to escape poverty and find a way to make a living. generally its just because they want to drain tax money to buy new vehicles and drugs.

lmao wow

Quote
oh, and i still stand by the fact that popular morality changes based on who has the power. 

as Frank Zappa would say "morality in terms of behavior not in terms of theology"

Quote
feel free to waste more time on this thing ;)

-if you feel comfortable saying things this dumb on a forum on the internet you probably would feel comfortable saying them in public too.

also i suspect you have never talked to anyone who is black or hispanic

itt dante is a moronic racist who desperately wants to be an intellectual and feels not even an ounce of shame despite his complete lack of tact or brain matter

itt everyone is terrible and prime examples of BULLSHIT

"i think my asshole is the best for receiving rimjobs, your asshole clearly has more fecal matter covering the edges"

wow you got so serious about all this. i'm shocked.

i'm just gonna post this for you to gawk at:

http://www.ebiblefellowship.com/outreach/tracts/may21/ (http://www.ebiblefellowship.com/outreach/tracts/may21/)

have fun

one up top for the mad troll brah brah

too slow!! haha!

Quote from: Pants, the terrible on October  7, 2011 04:39 AM
but honestly, the south is actually not very segregated rtil. in fact if anything, the only people segregating these days are blacks who dont want to conform to white society. government benifits are high enough for any person to escape poverty and find a way to make a living. generally its just because they want to drain tax money to buy new vehicles and drugs. i'm being realistic based on living in theodore alabama for 6 years. good fuckity lord. i mean, there is blatant white racism as well (read above), but its based on both sides creating a central image of an enemy race. very little of it these days really.

oh, and i still stand by the fact that popular morality changes based on who has the power. whoever can create a law can convince the following generation of it's impact on their lives by enforcing such a law. the war on drugs convinced millions upon millions that drugs are "bad" without teaching them any positive or negative points to them. it actually created a "good vs. bad" scenario of morality, where some would experience the drugs, and some wouldn't. it just created a moral standard that hadn't yet been adressed until the legal system grabbed hold of it.

ex: we drink and think opium is a dangerous drug morally and legally, while contrasting in Saudi Arabia, they smoke opium and inject heroin, while they believe drinking is a dangerous drug morally and legally. its all culture based. morals are never defined without society to do so.

right and wrong are still unanswerable conceptual questions without something to put them into a solid perspective. the power is generally other people agreeing with you or disagreeing with you. religions are simply clans of people agreeing with a certain concept, if thats not blatantly obvious.

oh, and god is an idea of perfection. perfection isn't all good or bad. those are just concepts that were developed to keep us from harming one another or ourselves. perfection is the ability to give guidance towards these concepts in such a way that there will be a sizable conglomeration to each, giving people choice, understanding, and their own opinions of this being. perfection is an idea, not concrete.

in fact, the entire fact that we are typing these paragraphs is proving that there is physical response to the idea of these beings. there has always been physical response to these, and thats where these ideas directly affect us the most prominently. oh well, i'm getting into simple philosophy now.

Best Line Delivery of All Time (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOmp3HpAGgM#)

Quote from: Sinitron on October  7, 2011 09:45 AM
itt everyone is terrible and prime examples of BULLSHIT

You sir, really get my line of thinking, a pizza point for you

my butt is in need of more dicks GIVE THEM UP AT ME

Disgusting Nephilim giants - ( The Gorilla199 Channel ) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3lwUdBmomE#)

Everyone must beware

The GIANTS will roam once again

the bible guarantees it, just like how the world ended a few months ago. man that was a trip.

cant decide if i threw up or delicioso

neither

it will remain in purgatory for eternity

man, way to be racist, classic christianity -_-
It'll be awesome to live in this world with 30 feet people and house sized turds

uhhhh yeah

Quote from: put on October 10, 2011 03:01 AM
man, way to be racist, classic christianity -_-
It'll be awesome to live in this world with 30 feet people and house sized turds

(https://thebackalleys.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thebackalleys.com%2Fdump%2Ffiles%2F590%2F1823zP_30%2520feet%252C%2520people%252C%2520and%2520house%2520sized%2520turds.png&hash=657ec282add9417d19224d66bbcef67a94ce3fca)

but rtil, that pic did have that hairstyle that you used to portray in much of your NG works. and its a furry and i know you get down and dirty and hairy and also sexing people with big ol' costumes on disney characters fun fuckhole abortion

i love you

i would suggest updating your calendars, it's no longer 2006

oh shit homes i have to check my pager to get the latest news on george bush! i missed so much!

Quote from: Pants, the terrible on October 10, 2011 04:36 PM
oh shit homes i have to check my pager to get the latest news on george bush! i missed so much!

can you stop posting?

can you stop BREATHING? pwned asswhole

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god bless america

UNironically :twizTiiiD:

Quote from: Pants, the terrible on October 10, 2011 04:36 PM
oh sht homes i have eck my

YOU NEED TO SHUT THE FUCK UP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nc_LIR5ExIU#)

this forum

i'm surprised that after pants started posting, this thread survived as long as at did

i forgot i even posted here

you were better off that way

why is this thread still active