richard dawkins wants to arrest the pope

[rtil]

by the way, there was no "beginning" or anything before the big bang. scientists don't know everything about the universe, but they do know that matter as it exists in the universe is seperate from the concept of time

matter was never created

would this be a legitimate explanation of how scientists 'discovered' that?

um, it's an abridged one i guess. not sure what you're getting at.

the way i see it, there was no chance this universe could not have been created, and if you look at evolution, there was no chance we would not have become the way we are now: it was all predestined

in what bizarre way do you see that we were predestined to evolve in the manner we have? humans may be the most intelligent creatures on earth, but we certainly still have our flaws. we are rather weak, slow, and prone to many illnesses and diseases, some that are capable of wiping out sizable numbers of us, even threatening extinction without intervention by us or even another species. we can't survive in any sort of harsh climates, and our survival skills are generally poor. before the modern age the average lifespan was around 50 years at best.

on top of all this, it took billions of years for us just to reach this point alone. it was only recently in the history of the earth that mankind was able to make its mark on this planet, and only in the last hundred years or so has the quality of life begun to improve dramatically.

to put things in perspective, if the history of the earth was squeezed into a 24-hour day, humans as we know them only appeared in a fraction of the last second of the day.

we are nothing special, and besides our mental capacity to separate ourselves from the rest of the earth's inhabitants with our higher intelligence and speech, we are simply a product of billions of years of a natural, explainable process completely devoid of anything supernatural.

we are not important, and we could be easily wiped out by the earth's natural cycles itself. look at the icelandic volcano that just erupted, disrupting all of european air traffic. and there's nothing we can do about that with all of our technology.

and you think our evolution was predestined? predestined for what?

nope, my proof is this universe we live in

this answer is dodgy and a cop-out at best. you can't use statistics to prove the impossibility of the universe existing in its present state. by that logic, i can say that the placement of a specific grain of sand on a beach is a divine work of god because of its impossibility.

[creamcorn]

Yup, I believe a ruthless/corrupt leader who does act on his untouchable position, and feels no guilt or remorse for what they have done, has issues. They might not be mentally unstable, but something definitely isn't wired up right. However not all leaders are ruthless and corrupt, and you don't have to be a leader to be selfish.  

The world we live in now only keeps making me think there isn't a god out there. At least, not a god that many of the monotheistic religions describe. There are many innocent people out there who are given a bad hand. People born into poverty-stricken lands through no fault but chance. Volcanos and tsunamis that destroy homes and lives. I can't believe that a god who deals in justice would be so unfair to so many people. The point of justice is that people who deserve to be punished get punished, and those who are good remain free. All I can do is appreciate how fortunate I am to be alive now.

ok, so he has issues, and he must be punished for what he has done. and those unfortunate kids are put through an ultimate test, we will never get a reward as great as theirs if they pull through
the world as it is now is not because of god, its because of ourselves. and he doesnt take action because there is hope and because we can solve this on our own

i dont think you get it, religious people dont go around not raping and killing people because their religion says so, they accept the religion to be true because it says things that makes sense, it says those things are wrong and its fair

by the way, there was no "beginning" or anything before the big bang. scientists don't know everything about the universe, but they do know that matter as it exists in the universe is seperate from the concept of time

matter was never created

would this be a legitimate explanation of how scientists 'discovered' that?

um, it's an abridged one i guess. not sure what you're getting at.

the way i see it, there was no chance this universe could not have been created, and if you look at evolution, there was no chance we would not have become the way we are now: it was all predestined

in what bizarre way do you see that we were predestined to evolve in the manner we have? humans may be the most intelligent creatures on earth, but we certainly still have our flaws. we are rather weak, slow, and prone to many illnesses and diseases, some that are capable of wiping out sizable numbers of us, even threatening extinction without intervention by us or even another species. we can't survive in any sort of harsh climates, and our survival skills are generally poor. before the modern age the average lifespan was around 50 years at best.

on top of all this, it took billions of years for us just to reach this point alone. it was only recently in the history of the earth that mankind was able to make its mark on this planet, and only in the last hundred years or so has the quality of life begun to improve dramatically.

to put things in perspective, if the history of the earth was squeezed into a 24-hour day, humans as we know them only appeared in a fraction of the last second of the day.

we are nothing special, and besides our mental capacity to separate ourselves from the rest of the earth's inhabitants with our higher intelligence and speech, we are simply a product of billions of years of a natural, explainable process completely devoid of anything supernatural.

we are not important, and we could be easily wiped out by the earth's natural cycles itself. look at the icelandic volcano that just erupted, disrupting all of european air traffic. and there's nothing we can do about that with all of our technology.

and you think our evolution was predestined? predestined for what?

nope, my proof is this universe we live in

this answer is dodgy and a cop-out at best. you can't use statistics to prove the impossibility of the universe existing in its present state. by that logic, i can say that the placement of a specific grain of sand on a beach is a divine work of god because of its impossibility.

first, what im getting at was that that theory was just a guess, since we cant scientifically prove if matter was created. its outside out cup/windowsless room

and to deny that were not something special is ignorant
we are weak, imperfect and unimportant for the existance of this planet, but to god we are important, god created this planet for us, and we are only here now because we can only survive in this little period of earth's time. this whole planet was made for us, and when the time was right and when the place was save enough for us to live in, we emerged. thats what i mean by predestined. predestined to exist in this world and do what god has made us for

and lastly, what i mean by that is like that watch/watch-maker thing. if you see a simple lego block construction you know a child made that, you see a piece of clothes, a more intelligent person made that, you see a monitor, a lot of intelligent people made that, and you see the universe: a very intelligent entity made that

[trent bortknob]

first, what im getting at was that that theory was just a guess, since we cant scientifically prove if matter was created. its outside out cup/windowsless room

and to deny that were not something special is ignorant
we are weak, imperfect and unimportant for the existance of this planet, but to god we are important, god created this planet for us, and we are only here now because we can only survive in this little period of earth's time. this whole planet was made for us, and when the time was right and when the place was save enough for us to live in, we emerged. thats what i mean by predestined. predestined to exist in this world and do what god has made us for

this is how your arguments go

P1 god thinks we're important
P2 god created this planet
C therefore god exists

that's pretty much begging the question. it's circular logic. all of your premises assume your conclusion to be true

[creamcorn]

first, what im getting at was that that theory was just a guess, since we cant scientifically prove if matter was created. its outside out cup/windowsless room

and to deny that were not something special is ignorant
we are weak, imperfect and unimportant for the existance of this planet, but to god we are important, god created this planet for us, and we are only here now because we can only survive in this little period of earth's time. this whole planet was made for us, and when the time was right and when the place was save enough for us to live in, we emerged. thats what i mean by predestined. predestined to exist in this world and do what god has made us for

this is how your arguments go

P1 god thinks we're important
P2 god created this planet
C therefore god exists

that's pretty much begging the question. it's circular logic. all of your premises assume your conclusion to be true

i wasnt using that to prove that god exists, i was explaining what i meant by 'predestined'

P1 were special but also weak
P2 we could only survive and utilise our intelligence in this period of time
C therefore its all planned out predestined

then i said what my religion says about that, its all predestined because god made the planet for us because he thinks were important

[rtil]

first, what im getting at was that that theory was just a guess, since we cant scientifically prove if matter was created. its outside out cup/windowsless room

there is substantial evidence to suggest matter is eternal, which means it was never created. matter may change its appearance, density, etc, but it is never created. the "something from nothing" idea, which theists typically believe, is not a supported scientific theory.

and to deny that were not something special is ignorant

actually it's the other way around haha

we are insignificant specks in this universe, so unimportant it's hard to put into words. to think otherwise is pretty high and mighty of yourself.

we are weak, imperfect and unimportant for the existance of this planet, but to god we are important, god created this planet for us, and we are only here now because we can only survive in this little period of earth's time. this whole planet was made for us, and when the time was right and when the place was save enough for us to live in, we emerged. thats what i mean by predestined. predestined to exist in this world and do what god has made us for

three issues here:
1. you assume god exists yet present no observable, scientific, reproducable or empirical evidence that he does - only anecdotes that you have faith in. it's hard to take your arguments seriously when you presume things based on what is essentially blind religious faith.

2. why do you assume that we "emerged" at the correct time? are you sure about this? are you aware that three major plagues have threatened to wipe out humans in our short time here on earth?

3. if we are predestined by a higher being, we have no free will. do you accept this?

and lastly, what i mean by that is like that watch/watch-maker thing. if you see a simple lego block construction you know a child made that, you see a piece of clothes, a more intelligent person made that, you see a monitor, a lot of intelligent people made that, and you see the universe: a very intelligent entity made that

no, i don't. when i see legos, clothes and monitors, i know a human made it because i have observed humans doing it.

when i see the universe, i see nature on a grand scale. nature is not driven by any intelligent entity. nature is automatic, an unstoppable, eternal force. it negates a creator.

[creamcorn]

first, what im getting at was that that theory was just a guess, since we cant scientifically prove if matter was created. its outside out cup/windowsless room

there is substantial evidence to suggest matter is eternal, which means it was never created. matter may change its appearance, density, etc, but it is never created. the "something from nothing" idea, which theists typically believe, is not a supported scientific theory.

thats what i mean, it only suggests it, we dont know it for certain

and to deny that were not something special is ignorant

actually it\\\'s the other way around haha

we are insignificant specks in this universe, so unimportant it\\\'s hard to put into words. to think otherwise is pretty high and mighty of yourself.

we small but if you wanna think of yourself as unimportant to anything then so be it. i wanna think of myself as someone somebody cares about

we are weak, imperfect and unimportant for the existance of this planet, but to god we are important, god created this planet for us, and we are only here now because we can only survive in this little period of earth\\\'s time. this whole planet was made for us, and when the time was right and when the place was save enough for us to live in, we emerged. thats what i mean by predestined. predestined to exist in this world and do what god has made us for

three issues here:
1. you assume god exists yet present no observable, scientific, reproducable or empirical evidence that he does - only anecdotes that you have faith in. it\\\'s hard to take your arguments seriously when you presume things based on what is essentially blind religious faith.

2. why do you assume that we "emerged" at the correct time? are you sure about this? are you aware that three major plagues have threatened to wipe out humans in our short time here on earth?

3. if we are predestined by a higher being, we have no free will. do you accept this?

1. of course i cant prove that god exists with those things, we cant, no one can.
and you assume that god doesnt exists and base your arguments around that based on scientific suggestions, what scientists assume how things might as well work. but that isnt enough against something supernatural
2.well if we emerged in the ice age or some other dangerous time we would never survive. its like god furnished a house before we can enter it
and we survived those plagues, right?  
3. we do have a free will. what you say makes no sense. we can do whatever we want, but god already knows what were gonna do with our free will. only him and noone else

and lastly, what i mean by that is like that watch/watch-maker thing. if you see a simple lego block construction you know a child made that, you see a piece of clothes, a more intelligent person made that, you see a monitor, a lot of intelligent people made that, and you see the universe: a very intelligent entity made that

no, i don\\\'t. when i see legos, clothes and monitors, i know a human made it because i have observed humans doing it.

when i see the universe, i see nature on a grand scale. nature is not driven by any intelligent entity. nature is automatic, an unstoppable, eternal force. it negates a creator.

how do you know nature is not driven by any intelligent entity? just because you havent seen him? you just assume god doesnt exist and base your facts on that

i know i do that too but the other way around: so in the end its all about a matter of faith

would you agree?

[rtil]

first, what im getting at was that that theory was just a guess, since we cant scientifically prove if matter was created. its outside out cup/windowsless room

there is substantial evidence to suggest matter is eternal, which means it was never created. matter may change its appearance, density, etc, but it is never created. the "something from nothing" idea, which theists typically believe, is not a supported scientific theory.

thats what i mean, it only suggests it, we dont know it for certain

i'm sorry, but yes, we do. the way you put it suggests we don't know for certain if, say, the theory of gravity is true. it has long been known that matter cannot be created or destroyed, it only changes form. the scale is irrelevant, and your point is moot.

and to deny that were not something special is ignorant

actually it's the other way around haha

we are insignificant specks in this universe, so unimportant it's hard to put into words. to think otherwise is pretty high and mighty of yourself.

we small but if you wanna think of yourself as unimportant to anything then so be it. i wanna think of myself as someone somebody cares about

your friends and family care about you, not a selfish god who demands tribute and a life of submission.

we are weak, imperfect and unimportant for the existance of this planet, but to god we are important, god created this planet for us, and we are only here now because we can only survive in this little period of earth's time. this whole planet was made for us, and when the time was right and when the place was save enough for us to live in, we emerged. thats what i mean by predestined. predestined to exist in this world and do what god has made us for

three issues here:
1. you assume god exists yet present no observable, scientific, reproducable or empirical evidence that he does - only anecdotes that you have faith in. it's hard to take your arguments seriously when you presume things based on what is essentially blind religious faith.

2. why do you assume that we "emerged" at the correct time? are you sure about this? are you aware that three major plagues have threatened to wipe out humans in our short time here on earth?

3. if we are predestined by a higher being, we have no free will. do you accept this?

1. of course i cant prove that god exists with those things, we cant, no one can.
and you assume that god doesnt exists and base your arguments around that based on scientific suggestions, what scientists assume how things might as well work. but that isnt enough against something supernatural
2.well if we emerged in the ice age or some other dangerous time we would never survive. its like god furnished a house before we can enter it
and we survived those plagues, right?  
3. we do have a free will. what you say makes no sense. we can do whatever we want, but god already knows what were gonna do with our free will. only him and noone else

let's get one thing perfectly clear before you say another word - science is NOT based on suggestions or assumptions - ever. it is based on fact. there are speculative parts of scientific theories, but if a theory is proven wrong, it is thrown away immediately and it's back to square one.

everything you have today you have science to thank for. and not once has science ever come across any scrap of evidence that would suggest a god exists.

although science is not looking for god, it is safe to say i have the advantage on this side of the argument.

i have a mountain of evidence on my side, and you have nothing but blind, speculative faith to counter it.

for point #2, early man lived through an ice age, and we will enter one again very soon. so unless god only intended modern man to inhabit the earth for, oh, 10,000 years, until things get uncomfortable again, it's a rather rude gesture.

and you don't seem to understand predestination or have studied it at all. if god knows what we will do before we do it, we do not have free will, we are pre-determined to do what god knows we are going to do.

and lastly, what i mean by that is like that watch/watch-maker thing. if you see a simple lego block construction you know a child made that, you see a piece of clothes, a more intelligent person made that, you see a monitor, a lot of intelligent people made that, and you see the universe: a very intelligent entity made that

no, i don't. when i see legos, clothes and monitors, i know a human made it because i have observed humans doing it.

when i see the universe, i see nature on a grand scale. nature is not driven by any intelligent entity. nature is automatic, an unstoppable, eternal force. it negates a creator.

how do you know nature is not driven by any intelligent entity? just because you havent seen him? you just assume god doesnt exist and base your facts on that

why do you continue to fall back on the "god did it" argument for everything?

i'll tell you how i know nature is not driven by any intelligent entity - because we understand how they work. we don't need a god to explain how the earth spins, the trees grow and crystals form, etc. why? because we know why they happen.

for things that we don't understand, we don't just say "god does it". with that kind of attitude, why even bother trying to discover anything or advance mankind at all? there'd be no point, because there'd be no mystery behind any of it.

but clearly, there is an explanation for everything that is observable and everything that can be deduced mathematically.

nothing supernatural behind any of it. and if you ask me, it's much more fascinating when you take god out of the picture.

and i don't base my facts on the "assumption that god doesn't exist". i base my facts on facts. and there is no factual evidence to suggest god exists. and the existence of a god and any religion he might come along with as well comes with many contradictions, fairytales, bizarre stories, backwards logic and stone-age, unchanging beliefs which are a detriment to society.

i don't see any benefit in pretending to believe in such nonsense.

i know i do that too but the other way around: so in the end its all about a matter of faith

would you agree?

no.

[trent bortknob]

and you don't seem to understand predestination or have studied it at all. if god knows what we will do before we do it, we do not have free will, we are pre-determined to do what god knows we are going to do.

rtil is right about this. if god made humans to do something, and he knows what we will do in the future, then our actions are merely his doing, not our own. no matter what we do, he already knows what it is that we've done and we didn't have any other option because he knows what we did in the future.

the ONLY attack on this is that maybe god lives in another plane of existence in which there isn't time. then he would just know all without knowing the future. my main issue with this is that it makes everything way too complex and i don't see why you're making excuses for something that doesn't exist

[creamcorn]

science is based on what we can understand with our human minds, which is very limited. so any scientific 'evidence' against the existance of god is false as far as im concerned. thinking that we can figure it all out is pretty high and mighty and arrogant if you ask me

ok then so we dont have free will, when were born god already knows if were gonna go to heaven or hell. but the point is: we dont know (until we get there)
so if i do good things and i believe that god knows my destiny i also believe he is fair and wont send me to hell when i did good things

so what if it is a rude gesture: were here only for a while and then we leave

on your point that there would be no point to discover things if you believe god made it all: what if god also tells you to go and discover things?

and lastly: we may understand how things work, but well never know it completely, and you can either think the universe is great because of the unlikelyhood of how it could work on itself, or you could admire god for how great he is that he created a universe that works like this

[lenko]

i still hold by the idea that we (the planet earth and its inhabitants) are just one giant cosmic accident

i\\\'m also a firm believer that we create our own paths through life, i think destiny/fate is a silly concept

[creamcorn]

i think destiny/fate is a silly concept

if i gave you the chance to do something, and after youve done it i tell you i already knew what youre gonna do, what difference does it make? you did what you wanted right?

[trent bortknob]

science is based on what we can understand with our human minds, which is very limited. so any scientific 'evidence' against the existance of god is false as far as im concerned. thinking that we can figure it all out is pretty high and mighty and arrogant if you ask me

ok then so we dont have free will, when were born god already knows if were gonna go to heaven or hell. but the point is: we dont know (until we get there)
so if i do good things and i believe that god knows my destiny i also believe he is fair and wont send me to hell when i did good things

so what if it is a rude gesture: were here only for a while and then we leave

and lastly: we may understand how things work, but well never know it completely, and you can either think the universe is great because of the unlikelyhood of how it could work on itself, or you could admire god for how great he is that he created a universe that works like this

science is not based off of what we can understand, what we understand is based off of science

what's the point of life without free will? that doesn't make any sense to me. we're just god's bidding and we're entirely replaceable

if god did a rude gesture, then god is not all-good. why would you worship someone who isn't all good?

how do you know that we'll never know it completely? what's your basis for thinking that? look at how far we've come in only a couple thousand years. now think about how long the dinosaurs lived. if we lived that long, whose to say what we'll know by then? i'm not going to admire someone who didn't do anything because he doesn't exist

i want to make the point that you don't ASSUME that god doesn't exist. when you're born into the world, whether or not god exists, there is no evidence of her. you assume then that there is a god, otherwise you're not making any assumption. i don't assume that there aren't evil crab people, i just have no reason to believe that there ARE evil crab people

[lenko]

i think destiny/fate is a silly concept

if i gave you the chance to do something, and after youve done it i tell you i already knew what youre gonna do, what difference does it make? you did what you wanted right?

well yeah, but i don't believe everyone has a pre-set 'route' through life

[rtil]

science is based on what we can understand with our human minds which is very limited.

proof?

so any scientific 'evidence' against the existance of god is false as far as im concerned.

let me explain this one last time - there is no scientific evidence refuting the existence of god.

what i said was there is no scientific evidence that suggests there is a god, and there never has been.

thinking that we can figure it all out is pretty high and mighty and arrogant if you ask me

this is a fascinating phenomenon theists seem to do with atheists - they take words out of the atheist's mouths and try to turn it around against them.

the fascinating part is that it never works.

i never suggested we can "figure it all out" - in fact, i have mentioned several times that the more we learn, the more questions we have. the universe is a humbling place, and the more we learn about it the more we realize we are never going to know everything.

ok then so we dont have free will, when were born god already knows if were gonna go to heaven or hell. but the point is: we dont know (until we get there)
so if i do good things and i believe that god knows my destiny i also believe he is fair and wont send me to hell when i did good things

so you think whichever one of these heavily doctrinated god's from whichever may be the right religion will let you into their heaven if you simply are a good person? you also assume this god is fair? what about humanity would demonstrate that god is fair if he indeed exists?

so what if it is a rude gesture: were here only for a while and then we leave

i'm talking about the history of humanity, not the life of a single individual.

on your point that there would be no point to discover things if you believe god made it all: what if god also tells you to go and discover things?

what and where does a theistic god say this? the christian god certainly does not.

[trent bortknob]

i think destiny/fate is a silly concept

if i gave you the chance to do something, and after youve done it i tell you i already knew what youre gonna do, what difference does it make? you did what you wanted right?

well yeah, but i don't believe everyone has a pre-set 'route' through life

no, not "yeah". he's wrong. chicken is saying that if you do something, and i had a pretty good idea what you were going to do, you do it, and i was right, you still had free will. that's true, but god knows what you're going to do without a doubt. what this means is that you don't have a choice. whatever you do, god knew that you were going to do it. you cannot do something that he does not know that you're going to do, and none of your actions are things that he didn't already decide.

[billy]

dinosaurs don't exist, satan put the fossils there ot make people not believe in god and fall into his trap
plus i think the wicked creatures that died in the flood

[Necronomitr0n]

[lenko]

i think destiny/fate is a silly concept

if i gave you the chance to do something, and after youve done it i tell you i already knew what youre gonna do, what difference does it make? you did what you wanted right?

well yeah, but i don't believe everyone has a pre-set 'route' through life

no, not "yeah". he's wrong. chicken is saying that if you do something, and i had a pretty good idea what you were going to do, you do it, and i was right, you still had free will. that's true, but god knows what you're going to do without a doubt. what this means is that you don't have a choice. whatever you do, god knew that you were going to do it. you cannot do something that he does not know that you're going to do, and none of your actions are things that he didn't already decide.

well that pretty much places god as some sort of giant puppetmaster which contradicts one of the most famous bible stories - the one of adam and eve. i said 'yeah' because it actually wouldnt make a difference if chicken told me he knew what i was gonna do. it would however make a difference if he actually did know exactly what i was gonna do before i did it though. but that would be nuts.

[rtil]

dinosaurs don't exist, satan put the fossils there ot make people not believe in god and fall into his trap

hahaha i was actually taught this in church

but the weird thing was that in my church's version god actually put the fossils there. why? nobody knew, of course

[trent bortknob]

i think destiny/fate is a silly concept

if i gave you the chance to do something, and after youve done it i tell you i already knew what youre gonna do, what difference does it make? you did what you wanted right?

well yeah, but i don't believe everyone has a pre-set 'route' through life

no, not "yeah". he's wrong. chicken is saying that if you do something, and i had a pretty good idea what you were going to do, you do it, and i was right, you still had free will. that's true, but god knows what you're going to do without a doubt. what this means is that you don't have a choice. whatever you do, god knew that you were going to do it. you cannot do something that he does not know that you're going to do, and none of your actions are things that he didn't already decide.

well that pretty much places god as some sort of giant puppetmaster which contradicts one of the most famous bible stories - the one of adam and eve. i said 'yeah' because it actually wouldnt make a difference if chicken told me he knew what i was gonna do. it would however make a difference if he actually did know exactly what i was gonna do before i did it though. but that would be nuts.

i know it contradicts the bible, but htat's because the bible is wrong. even people who are theists don't really believe in the bible because so much of it contradicts reality, and it's actually counter-evidence for god's existence