the way newgrounds works

[f0d]

ive been thinkin about this a lot lately. for a few months ive had zero motivation to do anything in flash because it seems like no matter how much work i put into it, it will never be satisfying once i finally submit it to NG. if its unsuccessful, it feels like a failure. if it gets front page because tom is a nice guy but generates little interest, it feels like i cheated. and if it is successful (ive only had one flash that really was), it feels like selling out.

basically, here's the problem with NG. the site as a whole is itself a cult phenomenon. however, the cult that NG attracts is a very specific one: internet obsessed nerds with a videogame fetish. that pretty much includes all of us too, except that although we generally enjoy the internet and videogames, we value animation as an art form, not just a tool for acting out all our nerdy fantasies. we seperate our interests from our art.

the state NG is in right now is pretty fucking dire. cartoons that specifically reference the internet are wildly popular. for instance, tankmen references newgrounds itself, and scienfaggotology or whatever its called references 4chan. even moreso, cartoons that reference video games are favored over anything else. exhibit A: metal gear awesome. these flashes are tremendously succesful, but they attract a specific niche audience. the more popular these flashes become, the more this mass niche audience grows. if you want to make anything original or worthwhile, you will attract a much more miniscule cult audience, that values creativity, within the first cult audience, which values pop culture and nothing else. the way ive been doin things on NG the past few years, the only audience for my gay ass work has been a cult within a cult, consisting of about 50 people total. the only way to gain more notoriety is to appeal to an audience i have no interest in entertaining.

basically, here's what it all boils down to. how can all of us possibly appeal to a broader audience outside of this niche without breaking into TV or movies? how do you appeal to an internet audience, which will almost always be ruled by nerds, without making something nerdy? or should none of us even try to broaden our appeal and should we instead focus on making unsuccessful quality work and increasing the size of our cult within a cult audience until it rivals the mass NG audience?

[Halcion]

Making comedies, 99% of newgrounds dont watch serious shorts or anything thats not funny/fun. You have to remember most "nerds" dont see themselves as nerds, they think theyre more or less "COOL" (i dont think thats got enough italics) when it comes to real life and the internet. As for a successful animation thats not nerdy, but appeals to the newgrounds audience. I think youd have to do a parody of a film that everyone knows about (bambee), and its due its fame...

though itll be stomped over by a video game parody.

[psi43]

Well, rtil's Metropolis Circuit wasn't in any way referencing to the internet either and it was a huge hit on NG.

I know what you mean though. If you're not a super awesome artist, you barely get any recognition for your work unless you do video game parodies or such things.

That's the way NG works though. That's how NG keeps getting more and more members and viewers, daily. Even though it's unfair, without that NG would be really small. You could try to make a website based on original content instead of videogame parodies and such, it wouldn't work out very well, I bet.

[f0d]

Well, rtil's Metropolis Circuit wasn't in any way referencing to the internet either and it was a huge hit on NG.

probably because it looked like anime

thats not to take anything away from rtil, metropolis circuit was a fantastic flash. but he quite simply HAD to please the shitty audience in order to gain notoriety. im sure he alleviated that problem by broadening his horizons and distributing it to sites other than NG where there is a smaller concentration of hardcore nerds and perhaps a greater appreciation for his artwork.

I know what you mean though. If you're not a super awesome artist, you barely get any recognition for your work unless you do video game parodies or such things.

That's the way NG works though. That's how NG keeps getting more and more members and viewers, daily. Even though it's unfair, without that NG would be really small. You could try to make a website based on original content instead of videogame parodies and such, it wouldn't work out very well, I bet.

its not that its unfair. its not even that its hard for original material to become popular, because thats not true either. its that the new audience is ruining the site. what motivation is there to make a kickass flash if all you will accomplish is a bunch of hentai-loving violence-enamored videogame-obsessed preteens sucking your dick?

and you're right, thats how NG keeps growing... it keeps attracting younger and younger viewers who are just now learning the ways of the world and thus think all this dumb fucking nerd humor, like that 4chan crap, is the funniest shit in the world. the more people make flashes like MGA2 and madness, the younger and more immature the audience becomes. the niche grows in size and numbers, but at the same time narrows their preferences.

what i think we need to do is start some sort of flash movement that will take some of these users and make them realize the value of originality. an experimental flash series would be an interesting way to do this. and even if we only attract fellow flash artists as an audience and the general audience continues to ignore most of us, the cult within a cult i was talking about would expand and eventually would be impossible to ignore. crews are easy to ignore... a whole group of talented animators devoted to making original and stylish content thats never been done before would be impossible to ignore

[MRat]

NewGrounds is Tom Fulp's website. It belongs to him and he has every right to do with it as he pleases. If you're not happy with the way it's run, find another website. I don't care if you think NewGrounds is the fastest way to exposure or whatever else you're going to say in response. You have no right to criticize NewGrounds. Would you go to someone else's house and then rearrange their shelves and tell them they did it wrong?


I hate the majority of the NewGrounds audience as much as you do. I don't like that things that infringe on copyright, bank of old tired jokes, and score high because of outside references beat out purely original content. It's ridiculous to even imagine it happening, let alone see it for real. It's a sad state of affairs when Alvin-Earthworm is a special guest artist. Artist.


This post is directed at anyone particular in this thread, or anyone in the world even. When I say you, I just mean people. Someone who criticizes Tom and his website for it's nerd audience is being as stupid as the people who used to send Tom hate-mail because his site was extremely violent. NewgGrounds is what it is.


With all that said, I still love NewGrounds, despite there being plenty of shit. I'd never have become who I am today without it. It was one of the strongest influences on me in my life. I wouldn't have gotten into art. I wouldn't have gotten into animation. Shit, I probably wouldn't have gotten into movies even without it. Also, through NewGrounds I came to meet some of the most interesting people I know. Zekey, Rtil, pretty much everyone here. Luis. TommyLM even. Hans Van Harken who though he made that shit Halo thing is actually a great guy with lots of passion and who has finally moved in his own as an artist, thanks primarily to our friendship.

I honestly don't want NewGrounds to change anymore, though I did for the longest time. I think, "if NewGrounds was any different, I would be different," and I don't like the way that sounds.


So what is it I say we do? I say we make the damn cartoons we want to make, and don't even think about the audience. Fuck the audience in it's hairy asshole. Great art has never been about an 'audience' it's been about the artist and it's been about expression, even against everything else going on if need be. So I say we honour art for what art is and simply express ourselves and let it go out there as it will.

[f0d]

the problem is not tom, tom always gives equal chances to different types of artists. he appreciates avant garde flashes. i think he runs the site fine, aside from the fact that he lets his psycho brother deal with punishing the userbase. wade doesnt even do anything anymore,, does he

but yeah this isnt an attack on tom at all, just the audience. and as for "fuck what the audience thinks," there's not much point in making art for no audience in particular. thats why i would like to find some way to appeal to that small "artist" audience on NG. find a way to appeal to the people who actually create flash, and fuck what the rest of the faggots think. if we can increase the amount of people who appreciate flash art for what it is, we might be able to carve our own little corner of NG that doesnt totally suck dick.

if enough artists got together and just said "we refuse to make unoriginal shit anymore" it would be neat. i always hated danoman's work, but the fact that he truthfully wants to make content that isnt just a parody is admirable

[MRat]

Well what is TBA then? I think we can all agree we've outgrown gay parody faggortry. Who are we but those few who appreciate art for what it is?

[f0d]

Well what is TBA then? I think we can all agree we've outgrown gay parody faggortry. Who are we but those few who appreciate art for what it is?

dats wat im sayin

we should band together in unity and make a really good series that will revolutionize NG!

of course, on a larger scale, no one will care. but on a smaller scale, if we can change the viewpoint of a few crappy commercialized artists who have been wasting their talents, that would be nice. i would love to make a series with help from the NG staff or luis or any of those guys, but they would never want to work with me on a dumb, pointless crew related flash. i propose instead that we start something experimental, just a standalone series where tba members, SS members, NG members, or whoever all band together for the sole purpose of making innovative short animations using new styles and techniques that aren't the norm. stuff like newshape or notorious or zekey makes. if we can attract even a few people away from the unoriginal trash and towards a new style of flash, we will have succeeded.

i dunno maybe im thinkin too big here but i do wanna start a series like this over spring break

[mishkamash]

yea fight the power

[Hammi]

Youre thinking positive, i like that. I bang for originality too. That artists out there should all do what comes out of the heart. All of those who got the real spirit to do a good effort should definitely have the chance to be recognized. Atm we got so incredibly many sprite fan flashes in the portal. Also so many artists out there get frustrated that they decide to switch over to a style that is so common at NG. Like theyre forced to change their ways in order to get attention from the audience. Some others also get sick of the whole thing that they decide to post spam when theres nothing really much to do. Also ultimately the only way to draw attention from angry members before they get laughed at.

Ive felt the same about the art forum there, where i drew stamper sucking on a cock just to whip up some attention. I never felt the pleasure of doing this, but i was driven to it. Now im tired of the community there. So i rather wanna post sarcastic comments and such.

If we could somehow draw the attention to a way that encourages originality in forms of flashes and art, it would be close enough to an artistic golden era. Cliché i know, but this is the vision that i got. I got hopes regarding this issue too y'know. Yep.

[CoolDrMoney]

Okay this sounds like a good idea

In any case, the unfortunate truth is art is a form of communication and it doesn't really matter what your message or intent is if the audience doesn't understand it/ doesn't want to take the time to understand it. I think generally the people on Newgrounds are looking for a quick laugh or looking for some violence riddin "TOTALLY KICKASS" fight scenes. They aren't going to take the time to seriously analyze something and appreciate it. There are however a few rare people on there that can make something both appealing artistically and entertaining to that crowd like Rtil, Zekey, WPS and Notorious (even though most of his flashes deserve a better score). Notorious specifically because he doesn't deliver any kind of comedy or violence in his pieces. It is solely presentation, and composition. Im still waiting for the day Newshape is recognized for his work.

Speaking of which, I haven't seen that chap around lately

[ZekeySpaceyLizard]

"yea fight the power"


Um.

COrrect me if I'm wrong but isn't "fighting the power" what we've all (well most of us) have been doing since like 2004?

And yet nothing has changed.
I'm not saying to give up entirely. But Newgrounds is mostly, a lost cause. It's the same then as it is now.
In 2004 it was bedn.
In 2006 it  COCK JOKE
in 2008 its 4chan references.

the place runs on a cycle and always will because its such a massive functional chunk of the internet. and the internet runs on a cycle as well.

There's no stopping the cycle, without stopping the website entirely which would destroy its functionality.

the ss
the ucfd
tba

we've tried. we've made things better. but you can never completely fix the problem.
because the problem lies not with the content but with the audiences tastes.

all you can do is occasionally write what you think about things and hope it convinces someone, even though it usually wont.

just do what you enjoy.

[psi43]

With all that said, I still love NewGrounds, despite there being plenty of shit. I'd never have become... blablabla ...who has finally moved in his own as an artist, thanks primarily to our friendship.

This was very touching (not really) and I am 100% sure that this counts for EVERYONE in the Clockcrew, Locklegion and even the star syndicate, probably. None of them would've met each other without Ng. Meeting rtil was probably the best thing that happened to me, ever. With meeting, I mean talking to him over the internet lmao. He inspires me a fucking lot, motivates me to draw, animate and even write and try new stuff. I even turned into a by FAR funnier person because of him. And without Newgrounds or Sheezyart, I wouldn't ever have met him. Touching, right? !!

wade doesnt even do anything anymore,, does he

One day, not too long ago he deleted 400 KK movies in a single day. The NG graveyard looked neat the next day.

we should band together in unity and make a really good series that will revolutionize NG!

I would REALLY love to join that experimental series. Sounds like a good plan.

[CoolDrMoney]

No one fuckin read what I said!

Meeting rtil was probably the best thing that happened to me, ever

Dam u gay!

[psi43]

lmao ok I just read what you wrote.

[f0d]

"yea fight the power"


Um.

COrrect me if I'm wrong but isn't "fighting the power" what we've all (well most of us) have been doing since like 2004?

And yet nothing has changed.
I'm not saying to give up entirely. But Newgrounds is mostly, a lost cause. It's the same then as it is now.
In 2004 it was bedn.
In 2006 it  COCK JOKE
in 2008 its 4chan references.

the place runs on a cycle and always will because its such a massive functional chunk of the internet. and the internet runs on a cycle as well.

There's no stopping the cycle, without stopping the website entirely which would destroy its functionality.

the ss
the ucfd
tba

we've tried. we've made things better. but you can never completely fix the problem.
because the problem lies not with the content but with the audiences tastes.

all you can do is occasionally write what you think about things and hope it convinces someone, even though it usually wont.

just do what you enjoy.

i definitely agree with all of that. and its easy to feel like NG is a lost cause because the audience proves itself to be sooo shitty sooo often.

but like psi43 is sayin, we all met each other through NG. can you really say "oh its absolutely hopeless now" when, in fact, there could still be people there who are just like us that we just havent found yet?

i think there is some hope for the site. i talked with tom a little and he wants to expand the blogging thing to mini-websites some time in the future. this would be excellent for starting an experimental flash movement of some sort. we wouldnt have to label ourselves as a crew and we wouldnt have to follow set guidelines for animating. i think being in crews is what killed our earlier efforts.

the SS? may have "fought the power" a little too hard. things got very bitter, we pissed off an assload of people, and no real message got through. we just got labeled as spammers and troublemakers and that was that. didnt matter how good our flashes were after that point. it was great fun and i loved every minute of it but i regret it every time i think about how the SS directly spawned the GG and KK. thats really what killed the SS in spirit, i'd say

the UCFD? way more behind-the-scenes type stuff. probably too hateful. we tended to take it out on the artists rather than the stupid fanbase heaping undue praise on those artists. we would personally attack legendaryfrog and illwillpress instead of their minions. sure, LF and IWP were faggots but that was the wrong message to send if you wanted to garner support. we did temporarily succeed in driving out the foamheads when we blammed that series of flashes he submitted, but now they're back in full force. what can ya do? faggots will be faggots

tba? well, tba hasn't really done anything as a whole just yet. why not start now?

like i said, its all about increasing the size of our little niche within a niche. we need a series that will convert people not by forcing our opinions on them, but simply by making innovative flash

[Halcion]

Tom has never really controlled newgrounds, the visitors have and always have. Ever since the portal was added. If 1 million people submit hentai flashes its a probable chance that most fo the front page will have hentai flashes, the same goes for video-hentai-awesome-sprite-crud-spam-unoriginal-wonchop flashes.

edit: the person who i think is most original is probably newshape.
edit2: about the mini-website thing. Hows Tom paying for this stuff? I remember years ago about the cost of the server then was in its high thousands, but now, newgrounds must be costing 7-digits, and to add mini-websites, which are going to be abused. Is stranger than science-fiction.

[sQueef]

wade doesnt even do anything anymore,, does he

One day, not too long ago he deleted 400 KK movies in a single day. The NG graveyard looked neat the next day.

He deleted my squeef account and i wasn't even being overly malicious, i wasn't swaying awards my way, I just massflagged some L* movies.

we should band together in unity and make a really good series that will revolutionize NG!

I would REALLY love to join that experimental series. Sounds like a good plan.

I would like to join the experimental series as well.

And if you guys think you haven't done anything well you've opened my eyes and I may not be  huge contributor or a great flashamator or anything but... Ahh well.

Because of the Star Syndicate and guys like you I've gone through years of "internet cycles" within the past 7 months.

I started out 7 months ago getting heavy into the internet, joined the KK, they got me going on their gay ass 4chan jokes so yeah I was pretty much a giant fag.

Then I started hearing rumors about some "1337 group called the Star Syndicate" and started studying.

learned about some shit.

dada dada etc. etc. got over 4chan, started realizing the SS wasn't just spammers but cared about art unlike the KK which ultimately lead me to leave the KK because they were actually dampening my own artistic ability. Also started realizing that they actually blatantly steal jokes that have been done for years now.

I've got talent c'mon! it'll just take some years before I can show you that haha   (I have to get over this strange fear I have everytime I open flash. I always get scared about just how deeply blank the canvas is. And it's hard for me to plan out how to build up a good movie. Which is why I submit shit, toy around with effects etc.)

Funny that I loved notorious's work and then came to find out that he was close with you guys. Also chrome is really nice. Hmm. Yeah I'd say you guys have changed my internet-life at least, probably not my real life so much but then again since I'm spending an overwhelming amount of my time on the internet who knows where the line between real and cyber begins to blur or whatever.

@Zekey

this has probably been attempted before but I see something different in f0d's statements. I wouldn't want to change newgrounds in any way, I think the staff is fine and they do a swell job, but I would like to expand the "inner cult" f0d was talking about. It's extremely hard to find fresh, new, willing, and talented people though.

(gay)

[psi43]

tba? well, tba hasn't really done anything as a whole just yet. why not start now?

because you said you wanted to finish dt400 first. When that's done, I would love to help out with a lot of stuff in that series, it sounds like a great idea. I can probably get a lot of good and original animators to join, too. Such as Arsecancer, who is very underrated in my opinion (He was Christy on the SS a while ago) and others that are like him (paul ter voorde is good, too and I am sure he'd join in. Just like Xenon maybe and perhaps even rubberninja but that'd be after he finished his gamer tonight stuff. Now I know that rubberninja makes gay videogame flashes but that's his job. )

[ZekeySpaceyLizard]

i definitely agree with all of that. and its easy to feel like NG is a lost cause because the audience proves itself to be sooo shitty sooo often.

but like psi43 is sayin, we all met each other through NG. can you really say "oh its absolutely hopeless now" when, in fact, there could still be people there who are just like us that we just havent found yet?

I'm not saying to abandon newgrounds. It's one of the few places we have. I'm just saying it's silly to think the place will ever blossom into some sort of haven. The place exists for lowbrow comedy. It always has, always will.

i think there is some hope for the site. i talked with tom a little and he wants to expand the blogging thing to mini-websites some time in the future. this would be excellent for starting an experimental flash movement of some sort. we wouldnt have to label ourselves as a crew and we wouldnt have to follow set guidelines for animating. i think being in crews is what killed our earlier efforts.

No I think lack of motivation is.
As a group, whether via aim or in the ss, other than dailytoon 400 we havent done shit lately. And it's not due to laziness, or a lack of ideas, it's due to having no motivation. Noone wants to do anything and noone feels like doing anything, because everyone's lost interest.
The ss is just a humorous forum now. And there's no problem with that.

the SS? may have "fought the power" a little too hard. things got very bitter, we pissed off an assload of people, and no real message got through. we just got labeled as spammers and troublemakers and that was that.

You say that as if that was a bad thing.
Those people needed something to piss them off and rile them up.

didnt matter how good our flashes were after that point. it was great fun and i loved every minute of it but i regret it every time i think about how the SS directly spawned the GG and KK. thats really what killed the SS in spirit, i'd say

I dont think it killed the ss or the ss spirit. We havent changed. Our personalities and relationships are the same as always.
What the KK (and other various spam groups) has done is dilute the whole point of spam. People make spam to be fashionable now. It's accepted by the majority as "ok"
It doesnt piss off anyone like it used to because people have realized, it's meant to piss them off. In a way, it's a good thing because it means we made most of the general audience smart enough to realize when they're being fucked with, on the other hand it makes it very difficult to rile them up anywhere except on the bbs.

the UCFD? way more behind-the-scenes type stuff. probably too hateful. we tended to take it out on the artists rather than the stupid fanbase heaping undue praise on those artists. we would personally attack legendaryfrog and illwillpress instead of their minions. sure, LF and IWP were faggots but that was the wrong message to send if you wanted to garner support. we did temporarily succeed in driving out the foamheads when we blammed that series of flashes he submitted, but now they're back in full force. what can ya do? faggots will be faggots

the only reason the foamheads are back is because Tom started to frontpage foamy again. Which sent out magical pixie dust to all the goth myspacers who flooded back to newgrounds in full force and started making foamy win ng awards again. had foamy been left where it was a year ago (ala sitting in obscurity with lower scores it deserved) and never gotten frontpage again, it'd still be a dead franchise.
but it was rejuvenated. probably because it makes money.

tba? well, tba hasn't really done anything as a whole just yet. why not start now?

like i said, its all about increasing the size of our little niche within a niche. we need a series that will convert people not by forcing our opinions on them, but simply by making innovative flash

It's easy to say things like that. But what really counts as an innovative flash these days? There's plenty of people still submitting great original material to newgrounds. Just cause a group suddenly join together to do it, wont send ripples across the community or cause any change.
I'm not saying making a flash crew devoted to making good flash is a bad idea, or a useless one.
But thinking that its going to change the minds and opinions of a bunch of stubborn kids is silly.