Kill La Kill

[rtil]

on one hand i don't think that any of kill la kill is meant to be taken seriously, and thus ryuuko and her 'sailor' outfit is meant to be an outrageous parody, and by many aspects kill la kill does parody a lot of different animes all at once. even the ED animation is a parody of sailor moon.

on the other hand, i think imaishi just likes tits. but he can be tasteful when he wants to be. little witch academia is a good example.

I thought Little Witch Academia was a student project.

You're right though. How seriously can you possibly take a show where school uniforms give people superpowers and the class system is based entirely upon performance in said school (oh wait...)?

it was, but it was also animated by trigger. but i'm wrong about who directed it, i forgot it wasn't imaishi, it was yoshinari. so nevermind that.. in fact it actually strenthens my argument because he wasn't involved in the designs at all. so there you have it, imaishi loves t&a and crude humor, it's in all of his projects.

[Flash]

In what way is Ryuuko a sex object? What does her character being tough have to do with the situations she's put in? What specifically makes it fanservice? What if Sushio genuinely likes to draw scantily clad women in racy situations for himself, and just felt like sharing this with you?

Why can't fun things be fun? Seriously you guys are missing all the pretty colors.

> In what way is Ryuuko a sex object?

She's not just a sex object, but she is sexually objectified everytime they show her scantily clad and in extremely sexually compromising positions for no real reason. I agree with rtil that it's probably tongue-in-cheek, but it still weakens the character, because it drives the attention away from her thoughts and emotions and from the plot itself. There are ways to joke about sexuality and to parody ecchi tropes that don't flatten what could have been one of those legendary Strong Female Protagonists we're always hearing about.

> What does her character being tough have to do with the situations she's put in?

Doesn't it scare you that they take this really tough, angry-looking character and hang her upside-down with a huge cameltoe+underboob combination and then she shrieks for a while? You know, you asked a very good question. The situations she's being put in have nothing to do with her character. They're just silly disempowerment fantasies.

> What specifically makes it fanservice? What if Sushio genuinely likes to draw scantily clad women in racy situations for himself, and just felt like sharing this with you?

Images carry plenty of ideas and ideologies with them, and 99% of the time these are tailored to a certain target audience by Men With Money who are desperately trying not to lose it. This isn't conspiracy-theory bullshit, it's how things work, and sure there are lots of cases of lenience and "taking risks", but half-naked girls aren't risk, they work. It's not as simple as what the artist "felt like" doing. And by the time the months/years of pitching, planning, raising money and making a show are over, things change. If he drew a scantily clad girl in a racy situation and figured he'd share that with us, by the time it goes through the hands of dozens of professional animators and colorists, yeah, it's become fanservice, regardless of the artist's original (or current) intentions.

[Bamyasi]

While I can't really argue with your last point, let me play devil's advocate here. Let's say a character being thrust into perilous, risque and humiliating situations makes said character stronger and more sympathetic to me. It's like "My Week at Anime School is Getting In The Way of My Quest for Filial Revenge." I disagree that this in any way weakens the character, because I don't believe Ryuuko is entirely constructed by her misfortune or what she is wearing(/not wearing). At least she has desires, which I would already say distinguishes her from a sex object or damsel in distress. Take the film Gravity for example, in which [spoiler]Sandra Bullock is prepared to give up and surrender her life to the titular force before the late George Clooney heroically returns from deep space in the form of a hallucination in order to mansplain to her how and why to save her own life.[/spoiler] I would argue this is a much more frightening display of disempowerment than a bit of fat and flesh exposed for kicks, especially if the latter aligns with the logic/aesthetic of the work in question. We don't really have a stake in what the anime industry produces, but, living in the west, we can definitely demand more from western media, which I would say is often more subtle in it's use of exploitation. Maybe I just have bad taste. Well, not maybe.

Again I agree with your last point, but I would argue an artist's submitting to the audience's idea of political correctness as being just as much "fanservice" as any stylized rendering of anatomy with added rope and train-tracks. There are definitely other anime which more than fit your criteria. I can understand your gripes though. You do a much better job expounding upon them than the Dragon's Crown detractors did a few months ago.

it was, but it was also animated by trigger. but i'm wrong about who directed it, i forgot it wasn't imaishi, it was yoshinari. so nevermind that.. in fact it actually strenthens my argument because he wasn't involved in the designs at all. so there you have it, imaishi loves t&a and crude humor, it's in all of his projects.

Okay I wasn't sure if Imaishi held production credits. I also hadn't realized You also did the character designs damn I guess it was a student project in name only. [spoiler]Just kidding manpower is obviously more highly valued in Japan than it is here.[/spoiler]

[Flash]

I don't really think she overcomes the sexy/racy situations she's put in at all, because we're not talking about conflicts that need to be resolved here, we're talking about the way she falls upside down and hangs in the air with a huge cameltoe and then falls flat on her face or whatever. You know? It's just her tits showing, it's not an obstacle she has to overcome. I see your point with the comparison to Gravity, but like you said, Sandra Bullock's character actually learns from her predicament and overcomes her difficulties. It's stupid that female characters always need a man to help them out, but what we're talking about here with Kill la Kill is even scarier - in my opinion - because it's just a very raw sexual fantasy being played out in front of you; by men, for men. It's an even more chauvinistic trope than having a woman depend on george clooney.

also i didn't read about that dragon's crown shitfest. (thankfully)

[zwimmy]

WHO IS THIS GUY?????????????????

[Gilthwixt]

I'm not saying I'm against fanservice, I can have fun and laugh when it's done right, and I get that the whole series is a parody. Mako is a great parody of Yui from K-ON and the Moe genre in general. But Flash has it right, when the vulnerable situations Ryuko's thrown into contribute absolutely nothing to the story or the piece as a whole, it leaves me sitting there and asking why they put them in to begin with (hint: it's probably money, pandering, and the male gaze). It's really not even the character design that bothers me, because we're not even sure if that's how Senketsu will look permanently. Even if it's permanent, I'm willing to let it slide if they empower her through the writing, but so far they haven't.

Out of the three implied rape jokes in these two episodes, one was with a doctor and another was with a teacher. That's supposed to be funny? Men in such positions of power sexually abuse women all the time, it's a serious problem. If they wanted to play Mako's dad as a lech and the professor as some weirdo with a stripping fetish for laughs, they could have done it without Ryuko being vulnerable, in way that didn't have such a rapey feel. I would have found it hilarious, especially the teacher, but as it is I couldn't help being a little weirded out by it.

If I want scantily clad girls in preposterous scenarios that leave them exposed in an absurd way, I'll go and watch Tru-Love-Ru Darkness, because at least I know what I'm getting into. But in an action show where the MC isn't actually an airheaded bimbo, where she's a competent individual who actually has desires like you said, that aren't centered around devoting herself to some guy? I just don't get why they would build her up to be this total badass, but then humiliate her like that. It's almost as if that's the point/joke, that powerful female protagonists will never be more than just tits and ass to stare at (or that they'll never escape being seen that way, depending on how forgiving you're willing to be.)

Dragon's Crown is a little different. Anyone that had bothered playing the games could see that each character represented a different body type and design.  Sure, the witch is incredibly busty and sexual, but the amazon is ripped and muscular, and the archer is small and fully covered in practical hunting gear. Each of them perfectly mirror the male characters, who are handsome/buff, built like a brick shithouse, and slim/svelt respectively. Moreover, even just looking at the rest of the studio's artwork, it's clear that the exaggerated figures and nudity are represented across both genders, and are intended as an homage to fine art and paintings from throughout the ages, the renaissance being a good example.

[Bamyasi]

I don't really think she overcomes the sexy/racy situations she's put in at all, because we're not talking about conflicts that need to be resolved here, we're talking about the way she falls upside down and hangs in the air with a huge cameltoe and then falls flat on her face or whatever. You know? It's just her tits showing, it's not an obstacle she has to overcome.

Maybe I'm just too used to instances like in Japanese media to find them all that distracting. You're right though, in that they don't appear to things to be overcome at this point, but they are tragic situations which I think can effectively build sympathy. Like, would you don embarrassing lingerie which sucks your blood and be ogled at by legions of men (real and drawn) in order to avenge your dead father? Okay, probably not the best rhetoric, but again I'm just playing devil's advocate.

I also disagree that this is made purely by men and for men. People of both sexes/genders can enjoy and appreciate female anatomy (in dominant and submissive positions) just as much as male anatomy (in dominant and submissive positions), especially if the object of appreciation comes in the form of a idealized, yet tragic heroine. The same tropes have been at play for centuries, east and west. They've just mutated to fit 2013 standards of what's sexy and desirable and in a cartoon.

It's almost as if that's the point/joke, that powerful female protagonists will never be more than just tits and ass to stare at (or that they'll never escape being seen that way, depending on how forgiving you're willing to be.)

I think you might be getting at something with the latter. Also again, as devil's advocate, these scenarios may add nothing of value to you, but I consider them effective in developing a sympathetic character. Sexuality may not be an obvious motif in the text directly, but it can certainly be explored in how the text is rendered. And as far as humor, maybe those occurrences are meant to be read as black comedy?

Also, do you recall the very first scene in episode 1 in which the male student is stripped naked and hung upside down as punishment for stealing the Goku Uniform? Keep in mind that, within the text, Ryuuko is not put into sexually degrading situations purely because she is a woman, but because she stands in opposition to the school and it's ideals. See? It happens because of something she does rather than who she is. This already makes her stronger than the lead in Gravity, who doesn't actually do anything. [spoiler]Not even save her male counterpart. It has to be the dead male hero who saves her. Every other life threatening situation she wriggles out of, she does so almost purely by chance. And in the end, she only survives for herself, not to uphold some greater ideal. I know this is a cultural difference but it's still worth mentioning.[/spoiler] Also, not every female character in Kill la Kill is even sexualized. The head chairman Satsuki for instance not so in the slightest, so the sexist logic doesn't carry over to all characters, unlike, in, say, Tu-Love-Ru.

I agree with zwimmy though this is only on the second episode and I think we should really give it more time before writing our theses. Especially since it's Nakashima we're talking about. By the end of one cour this entire discussion might very well seem ridiculous. Maybe everybody just has different turn-ons. Let's hug.

[Stu4U]

from what i've seen so far its only cute girls in tight outfits with superpowers who kick the asses of bad guys to slowly make their way up  the food chain to kick the asses of slightly tougher bad guys, which is totally rad in my book at least.

cute girls,
and ass kicking.

[BluPhoenix]

i feel that calling ryuko a sex object is a bit ridiculous, she's still a young lass who's only begun her journey- any portrayal of her character in a weaker light is most likely a product of the anime's core structure, which, if not obvious- is linear progression. ryuko will beat her way up the ranks, gaining strength and experience, learning how to master her's, senketsu's, and her blade's true power.

if we're gonna complain about anything at this point, let's talk about the deus ex machina of destroying the other player's uniform to win the tennis match

not like it's much to complain about, i just thought it was a bit too easy of a win for her

[rtil]

i dunno if i'd call it deus ex machina... it was a tennis court laced with deadly spikes. clearly it was more than just winning a tennis match, especially considering the school's tennis team beats their players who miss practice with tennis balls to death (although mako seems to miraculously recover from injuries in seconds). what ryuuko did was fair game, and i'd wager that her opponent was trying to do the same thing.

[BluPhoenix]

i suppose, it just felt unsatisfying to me.

[rtil]

i have a feeling her opponents will get more challenging as the series goes on. you always start with the small fries

[Stu4U]

i will patiently wait for the day ryuko fights this darling.

[zwimmy]

Ya'll need to settle down.
[spoiler]Don't lose your way.[/spoiler]

[BluPhoenix]

WHO IS THIS GUY?????????????????

obviously gilthwixt

[rtil]

thanks 2 the people who are fighting the good fight in this thread

let me just make a comment on this

> Keep in mind that, within the text, Ryuuko is not put into sexually degrading situations purely because she is a woman, but because she stands in opposition to the school and it's ideals. See? It happens because of something she does rather than who she is. This already makes her stronger than the lead in Gravity, who doesn't actually do anything.

Alright this is just complete mental gymnastics and makes no sense. you keep saying over and over again that "oh this sexualization happens for a good reason, so it's okay!!" but that just doesn't make sense. independent of any reason for its occurence, be it building sympathy or whatever, the Kill la Kill sexualization (as of episode 2) is just clearly objectifying to women in a way that would really make any reasonable person feel at best uncomfortable and at worst infuriated. i think the only argument you could make to justify the sexualization would be if the scenes ultimately empower women or inform people about the issue (such as in a documentary that depicts sexual assault for the sake of information) but I really don't see that happening in any of these episodes.

to me, these sexualized scenes are the same as randomly having a person in a movie shout "nigger nigger nigger nigger" to a black person without any good reason. the scenes are completely absurd and arbitrary and the show would lose minimal value by just removing them completely. they serve no good purpose and are honestly offensive. i'm not a feminist and i don't want to start a flame war, but i really don't see how any reasonable person can justify the sexualized shit in this show.

i agree that they are uncomfortable, there have been 3 near rape experiences for ryuuko in 2 episodes, one of them probably would have been a rape if not for mako shooing her father off if ryuuko would have been unable to defend herself. the other two being senketsu forcing ryuuko to wear her , which pretty much played out exactly like a rape, and the glasses manservice teacher who took the liberty of stripping ryuuko while unconscious and incapacitating her so she couldn't get away.

despite these scenes i really enjoy kill la kill. i'm not sure what to take away from ryuuko's sexualization - i can't tell if it's cheap pandering or some kind of warped statement or parody. maybe it's supposed to be funny for all i know. i'm not going to let them get in the way of my enjoyment of the show , but i do agree that kill la kill would be the same or better off without them.

WHO IS THIS GUY?????????????????

obviously gilthwixt

oh my god

[Kött]

It's a goddamn anime, just get the fuck over it. Back in the 90s, a major part of the Japanese shows that aired in my country were built up on violence and tits and many of these shows were part of what made the genre as a whole popular in the west. I'm talking about bullshit like Agent Aika here. These shows barely even had scenes where you couldn't find any kind of sexually suggestive elements.

Why do you watch anime? Why do you have a user picture of an anime character? Even today most animated shows aired in Japan would probably make any feminist go nuts, even though recently the sexual elements in most shows have become a lot tamer than they used to be. This series, however, goes back to the roots of blatant fan service in an almost outrageously over-the-top kind of way, possibly parodying the illustration of female characters in most anime as the other guys have already pointed out.
A second way to see it would be simply to accept the show for what it is and enjoy it as it is.
Dinner's served. It's ass and boobs, so eat up, you little brat!
Every anime has its demographic and this one certainly is not one for those people who can't tolerate a bit of naked skin every now and then.
I personally hate animes which are solely built up on nothing but cheesy, sexually related situations at the expense of female characters. Whenever the protagonist stumbles and his face lands in the crotch or between the breasts of a female character, it ceases to amuse me, which is mainly because it is not executed in a clever way and it feels like a bad joke that is being told for the 1000th time. Just this classical harem bullshit... it gets old so damn fast...
However, I don't mind it and it sometimes even amuses me if it's done well and this particular show did manage not to cross the line while still not being built up on shitty stereotypes and bad sex jokes in my opinion. Of course it is something that can be criticized and questioned when you start to take an anime seriously, but honestly, Kill la Kill doesn't really take itself seriously at all so far. Criticizing it for the sexual way in which it depicts its female characters is like criticizing a tragedy for not being funny. It is simply not relevant for this show to maintain female empowerment at all times. Quite the opposite, it might even be more relevant to sexualize characters to appeal to the intended demographic.
Lastly, if all media was politically and ethically correct, many of us would probably go crazy. One cannot simply demand everything to illustrate women in a feministically appropriate way or declare everything that doesn't do so and doesn't have an educational purpose bad. It would work as a kind of personal, subjective criteria for a few individuals, but certainly not for me.

[Gilthwixt]

Ya'll need to settle down.
[spoiler]Don't lose your way.[/spoiler]

I need this song

WHO IS THIS GUY?????????????????

obviously gilthwixt

<3

I would cosplay him if it didn't require pythons for arms.

However, I don't mind it and it sometimes even amuses me if it's done well and this particular show did manage not to cross the line while still not being built up on shitty stereotypes and bad sex jokes in my opinion.

I disagree, I definitely think the show has crossed the line into "overdone" territory, but again, the line's location is subjective and I'm merely voicing my opinion

One cannot simply demand everything to illustrate women in a feministically appropriate way or declare everything that doesn't do so and doesn't have an educational purpose bad.

It's not that I demand everything to be pro-feminism. All of the fanservice aside, I really do enjoy this show and most of Trigger's work in general, but like with what rtil said, the show isn't gaining anything from rape jokes and overdone fanservice. It would be the same, or arguably better, if those scenes were excluded, so why have them to begin with?

Just because it's anime, because lots of anime is sexual, doesn't mean I'm not allowed to demand something better. I consider animation to be the superior artform, but outsiders and mainstream critics will never see it that way if tits and ass and kids cartoons is all we're going to do, over and over. Trigger has some of the best animators in the industry; Little Witch Academia is a step in the right direction, but it's arguably very safe. With Kill La Kill they have the chance to do something amazing and move the industry forward, but if pandering to the typical otaku is all they're planning, we'll never get out of this supposed "ghetto" we've been in for decades.
.
Or maybe I got too hype and set my expectations too high. It's still early, and like everyone's saying, in 20 episodes it's possible this argument will be irrelevant. That doesn't mean I'm not going to point out what I like and don't like along the way.

[rtil]

It's a goddamn anime, just get the fuck over it.

while i can't agree with this, i will agree with this

Kill la Kill doesn't really take itself seriously at all

and that is why i do not take huge issue with it.

but on the point of "it's just anime", i don't buy it. animated media can have the same impact on people as any other type of entertainment, sometimes even more so. it is a medium in which to tell a story, and people take something away from that. kill la kill can be as loose as it wants, but it will still make a statement to a viewer.

[Bamyasi]

Hey let's at least wait until the show is through one cour before critiquing it.

In the meantime let Japanese women speak for themselves. They have different values over there. We are merely voyeurs. In the end our opinions don't matter.

I was only defending (poorly) against what I saw as an essentially biased and westernized criticism of an eastern piece, which could easily be interpreted as... wait for it... yeah imperialism.