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Quote from: rtil on February 25, 2014 08:51 AM
the #1 problem is the widespread belief that animation is for children, or that it shouldn't be taken seriously (hence why almost all "adult" animation in the states is in the form of comedy). if that could be quelled then i think the market would burst open very quickly.

Alright you all heard the man, now how can we save our most precious medium?

We need ideas here people ideas.
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It's hard to think about this abstractly. This belief that rtil mentioned can only be shaken if someone who has the money/backing to indeed make adult-oriented (or at least not child-oriented) animations just steps up and makes them.

There's a single context in which I can think of animated movies being "taken more seriously" on a regular basis, and that's the context of adaptations. Stuff like Persepolis, Heavy Metal, Cowboy Bebop and Akira are all adaptations of comic books, popular shows or magazines - so what we have in the end is a producer who looks at a profitable product from a media which isn't thought of as being "for kids", and sees an opportunity to capitalize on it, and we end up having an animated film "for adults" by inertia.
Besides, if you look at different types of animation (clay animations like Mary and Max, or stuff like Waltz with Bashir and Waking Life) you'll find that they are often more "mature". I know that sort of movie gives a very distinct vibe from traditional 2D animation but it still helps the mainstream media to not think of animation as being "for little kids".

In my opinion, the sad truth is that non-comedic adult-oriented animation needs to be "backed up" in some way by previous successes in other media. Thankfully there are a whole bunch of exceptions!, but they're mostly either from the East or not in the traditional 2D format, which is great, but doesn't help with the status quo set by Disney in film and Warner Bros. on television.

chill out guys im on it

nobody sane takes animation seriously, because animation and the people attracted to it are fucking weird

see: shit like my little pony, adventure time, etc...

"adult animation"? what the fuck is even that supposed to be? if you stick adult on something you're pretty much associating it with porno, that doesn't make it good or worthwhile (see: every shitty japanese porno animation ever)

most animated movies etc are just colossal retard and weirdo magnets, the only way to do away with that is stop making trash targeting specific garbage demographics and instead make something with a worthwhile fucking story, consistently good animation without any cop-outs, and not rely on gimmicky shit to promote something

i mean look at akira, it's got really good animation, but it's a weird fucking movie - most of the characters aren't really very interesting beyond their part in the story, and the story itself is weird because it's just some parts of a much more extensive work, it doesn't really tell all the things it might have wanted to, it is confusing and weird to anyone who just watches it without any prior knowledge of context, riding mostly on the fact that it's mostly well-made

disney is actually one of the few companies who has mostly done a good job with most of their films, though arguably disney channel is largely shit as it just shares the brand name and isn't run by the same people - it's possible to sit down and watch just about any disney movie with just about anyone without any weird looks, and it's enjoyable enough for the most part because unlike akira it (usually) doesn't have weird body horror for no apparent reason that couldn't have been told in another way, in this way a lot of disney films are a good baseline for quality

it's important to break down the story you want to tell, and compare it to relevant media formats and consider why it could work in some and not others

for example golgo 13 is a pretty old-school anime, it has quite reasonable animation (especially the ova "the professional), but it could just as easily have been told as any generic 80s action flick with fake explosions and dudes with sunglasses, it just happened to be more convenient to make an animated movie

now going back to the basics, most cartoons directed towards children have a pretty condescending attitude towards its own audience, which is why it's generally just fucking trash and isn't of any value to anyone else bar the mentally challenged or if it has some kind of fetish fuel going for it (ie MLP being full of horse butts)

this is consistent across the board, regardless of when something was made. it doesn't matter if it's scooby doo, adventure time or tengen toppa gurren lagann - if any of these ceased to exist, they wouldn't be missed tomorrow, because they're all fucking terrible but for different reasons

i used to only put value into the raw quality of animation, fluidity and consistency, but over time it just became apparent how fucking irrelevant this is: nobody uses animation as a medium to tell a worthwhile story. it doesn't have to suck, there's just no creative force behind it to drive it towards something more than being just fodder for backwater reruns or shoveling merchandise

i can't remember the last time i saw an animation in 2D of any flavor that actually had the capacity to move me, i suspect this is because whoever created it was an unfeeling and emotionally dead shell of a person who probably has a bunch of foreign cartoon characters on a shelf and jerks off to pictures of various animals with human features. more often than not, this assumption is sadly accurate.

anyway my point is you need to kill all bronies before anyone will take you seriously, the last time i encountered these foul fucking degenerates they were discussing how to warm up mares to being buttfucked by non-equine sexual partners with in-depth descriptions of how it was important to stay close to their behinds so as to make the process of rejection by kicking harder for them and easier for the offending non-equine partner to read their movements and dodge any incoming kicks

seriously those are the patrons of your arts, and that's why animation as a 'serious' medium is completely fucked

also the internet ruins everything

Quote"adult animation"? what the fuck is even that supposed to be? if you stick adult on something you're pretty much associating it with porno, that doesn't make it good or worthwhile (see: every shitty japanese porno animation ever)

I just meant stuff that contains 'mature themes'. Violence, drugs, sex, political commentary, whatever.
(Not that I think only adults should watch 'adult' stuff, it's just a handy label)

Quotemost animated movies etc are just colossal retard and weirdo magnets, the only way to do away with that is stop making trash targeting specific garbage demographics and instead make something with a worthwhile fucking story, consistently good animation without any cop-outs, and not rely on gimmicky shit to promote something

I strongly disagree with that and I think you could think of the whole history of commercial entertainment as "colossal retard and weirdo magnets" and "trash targeting specific garbage demographics" if you feel that way. But then you're just taking a whole bunch of different films that have some flaws and being really black-and-white in saying THEY ALL SUCK IN ALL RESPECTS

Quoteit's possible to sit down and watch just about any disney movie with just about anyone without any weird looks, and it's enjoyable enough for the most part because unlike akira it (usually) doesn't have weird body horror for no apparent reason that couldn't have been told in another way, in this way a lot of disney films are a good baseline for quality

They're a good baseline for that sort of classical, charming, inoffensive quality that tells a good story in an enjoyable way but is BY NO MEANS the only style of cinema we have to work with. So now if you get weird looks from your movie, you're doing it wrong? There are so many great movies that just weird you the fuck out for a long time and they're just as necessary as the classical tried-and-true ones. This applies to live-action as well. No direction is better and they're both supposed to play off of each other (which is another reason that makes me feel like mainstream animation has been growing stale: unlike in the area of Hollywood AAA flicks, they don't study up on / take hints from the more experimental / cult circles, if only to appropriate their advances).

I fucking love watching strange animations and I don't give a shit if those loveable goofy weirdos ain't read robert mckee

Ok,time for a serious post since this topic is quite a big fucking deal to me.

I really think that animation in the west, even 2D animation, can be pushed in new directions that can be successful both commercially and critically. Like you guys have said before, it just takes someone to step forward, get the funding, and do it. Just fucking do it. YOLO BLAZE IT NIGGA

I hear a lot about how people miss 2D. I hear a lot about how people want something new and different. There's a growing interest in neo-retro 80s influenced music and film. The indie scene is on the rise and stronger than ever. Kids who grew up in the 80s and 90s watching 2D cartoons are getting to the age where they are the creators. We don't need Hollywood anymore. Thanks to the internet we've got new ways of getting exposure and funding. Two-dimensional animation no longer needs a workshop of hundreds of people painstakingly inking and painting every single cel. We've got computers that make the process of 2D animation much more efficient. When you think about all the time it took to make animation decades ago, It's a miracle they produced as much stuff as they did of the quality they did. Now the potential of 2D is greater than ever before.

It's possible to make an awesome 2D animated film. It just takes a solid balance of good design, good animation (in both character acting and action/effects), good characters, good cinematography and maybe even some techniques that take advantage of the medium of 2D that can't really translate over into 3D. (like the first time JP uses nitro in Redline and he gets "stretched" before he blasts forward.) I think character driven stories come out on top over complex, convoluted plots. Characters who are well fleshed out and unique and who think about complex themes like morality and the human condition can resonate with audiences on a much deeper level and leave a lasting impression.

I really believe in this thing and I know we can make this work. I've had a bumpy start when it comes to my life but now I'm finally on the path I want to be on. I've still got some kinks to work out and I'm not the best or brightest but I have a goal of making an amazing animated film someday and I will not stop working towards it until I have succeeded or I am dead.

So yeah, this is pretty much an outline of what I believe in and what I want to achieve. Every day I am thinking, watching and learning, developing my ideas, playing scenarios in my head and being inspired. This year I want to bring more of those ideas into the real world by drawing and writing, hoping that will give you a glimpse into my dream.

Quote from: Sinitron on February 25, 2014 05:31 PM
"adult animation"? what the fuck is even that supposed to be?

i put it in quotes because of this reason. but if you read my other post about it i said "adult" animation in the states is basically anything animated that airs after 8PM on tv. stuff like Family Guy, King of the Hill, Robot Chicken. shows that have humor, stories or references directly aimed at a certain age demographic, that other people won't "get".

Quotedisney is actually one of the few companies who has mostly done a good job with most of their films, though arguably disney channel is largely shit as it just shares the brand name and isn't run by the same people - it's possible to sit down and watch just about any disney movie with just about anyone without any weird looks, and it's enjoyable enough for the most part because unlike akira it (usually) doesn't have weird body horror for no apparent reason that couldn't have been told in another way, in this way a lot of disney films are a good baseline for quality

although disney has had some good runs and a number of excellent films, i don't think they're the best example to look up to, unless you're talking about animated films playing it safe and following a tried and true formula that audiences are comfortable with. nearly every disney film is a princess/damsel in distress story, zero to hero story (hell, Hercules had a song named after this trope) with a very easily spotted villain. it's always good vs evil for them, even if the underlying motives are not necessarily either, they get painted that way.

you're going to disagree with me because it's anime, but i think Ghibli is a better example because they do away with the concept of good vs evil and there are no heroes and villains, only opposing forces with a different set of goals who happen to be at odds. they're also NOT musicals and do NOT inject its country of origin's culture in places where it doesn't belong (Disney is 100% guilty of this and it is annoying). even though there are some macabre elements of Ghibli films they are not targeted at any one specific demographic and are generally enjoyed by audiences of all ages. most importantly, the film's themes are timeless and they make audiences think. Disney often leaves nothing to the imagination

I think it's time commitment compared to making an end profit.

The graphic novel Sandman, in its structure, rivals most literature, and half the panels are atrociously drawn. I imagine if it had been constructed as a 75 hour animated epic investors would be wanting more immediate return than a fan-base which won't exist for another twenty years.
Ghibli (the popular films) compromises its unconventional stories/endings by having heavy action sequences inserted throughout. It's other films that don't do this (as much), grave of the fireflies for instance, aren't as popular. My Neighbors the Yamadas only aired on television for the first time recently. Only Yesterday isn't exactly popular in the west either. In general, narrative conflict, or how predictable the story is, doesn't interest me. It's the way it tells its generic story that counts. If someone finds the language used in anime films/television tiring and predictable they won't find it profound no matter how unusual the story itself is.


Disney just adjusted itself to commercialism as time passed and accepted its fate, by Cinderella in 1950, I found that their films had become unwatchable but everyone else loves the movies after 1950 more than its earlier output.

Quote from: rtil on February 25, 2014 10:10 PM
you're going to disagree with me because it's anime

wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong

i don't hate anime for the sake of it being japanese, i hate anime because the vast majority of it is garbage and extremely guilty of the whole fetish fuel/retard magnet routine, they have competent animators which sometimes show a spark of ingenuity and a desire to reach out and do something new, but then it immediately falls back to the same tried and true same-faced approach, squealing characters and predictable plot lines, pretty much pissing on whatever semblance of quality they might be able to establish, and this is has become doubly true for the vast majority of their animation industry ever since the late 90s and early 2000s, which incidentally is the same time period western cartoon went into a decline as well

ghibli is one of the few exceptions to this trend but i don't feel they're consistent enough to be a good basis for this, and they still largely follow a formula aimed at a specific culture and don't do as well with other audiences who are not familiar with it

disney is incredibly simple and follow stereotypes to the point where they can be accused of racism but in most cases it is recognizable enough, that isn't to say that i enjoy or give a shit about every disney movie but rather that they're watchable at any time and many of them have aged quite well, which is pretty important since most movies become obsolete more quickly if they're made for the times rather than being timeless (which is why none of the current hollywood AAA-pigshit will be worth preserving in the future)

that isn't to say that ghibli (as the most prominent example) isn't trying to do the same thing, both they and disney have varying degrees of success but ghibli restricts itself by largely following japanese culture, customs and history, and has even received a lot of flak in japan for this with "grave of the fireflies" and more recently "the wind rises" because it SOILED THE IMAGE OF GREAT JAPANESE EMPIRE even though the movies themselves were quite nicely done in a lot of ways

also, while not 2D, pixar made several incredibly good movies and shorts before they were bought up/merged with disney, after which they started being more hit or miss, but they've still done a pretty good job of proving that 3D can tell a story just as well ans advanced 3D animation to a point where there aren't really any advantages to using 2D as long as you apply the correct techniques - that isn't to say that they cannot co-exist, but 3D has a more expansive area of application which makes it a much safer bet when the people who work on it can easily be relegated to other duties, which makes it very easy to phase out 2D in favor of 3D for a lot of companies (which can be a good or a bad thing)

the reason i like a lot of 80s shows in particular is because at the time they were afraid to experiment with different imagery, even if the shows themselves were practically garbage with no lasting sustainability (omfg silverhawks) they're still very recognizable and contributed a great deal to different genres. incidentally, this was also around the time american animation industry started seriously outsourcing their shit to cheaper studios abroad, which could explain this temporary shift, with many of my favorite shows being animated in japan, but with largely more of an international appeal

again, this is a baseline for creative expression, and putting it into context. there was a lot of new stuff going on in that time period, which led to the 80s being very colorful and the 90s being very consistent by riding on the back of the earlier wave of new imagery and expression, but which dissipated in the 2000s and is now largely supplanted by lots of more generic and boring stuff which tends towards being either being really WACKY and dumb (adventure time as a prominent example), remakes of older shows (mlp, tmnt, etc...) or knock-off anime 'because that probably sells'

this is an on-going phase which imo won't end until something drastical happens to uproot the entire animation industry, because it exists as a luxury just like video games and art in general, and a paradigm shift to shift cultural output and influences can go a long way towards making everything fresh and exciting again

let's say, for some reason, american economy collapsed as a result of embargoes as everyone got fed up with their shit, japan got swallowed up whole by an earthquake, and china became a hellhole of mutant degenerates due to them polluting their drinking waters and fucking up their own population

and then suddenly zimbabwe and north korea became the leading world superpowers against all odds, with cyborg mugabe directing anti-gay propaganda animations on his older days as kim jung un took up his father's hobby of movies and became supreme leader of Pyongyangwood

that will never fucking happen but it sure as hell would stir shit up with this stagnant fucking dead-end industry!!!

also re: ghibli, one thing they've largely done right from what i've seen is that they don't fill their shit with annoying squealing jar jar binks comedy relief characters AND THANK FUCK FOR THAT BECAUSE IT DOES A LOT TO MAKE THINGS WATCHABLE IF YOU DON'T HAVE TO GET PISSED OFF AT IT

Quote from: Sinitron on February 26, 2014 04:12 AM
i don't hate anime for the sake of it being japanese, i hate anime because the vast majority of it is garbage and extremely guilty of the whole fetish fuel/retard magnet routine, they have competent animators which sometimes show a spark of ingenuity and a desire to reach out and do something new, but then it immediately falls back to the same tried and true same-faced approach, squealing characters and predictable plot lines, pretty much pissing on whatever semblance of quality they might be able to establish, and this is has become doubly true for the vast majority of their animation industry ever since the late 90s and early 2000s, which incidentally is the same time period western cartoon went into a decline as well

then you hate everything, right? because every creative industry suffers from this a majority of the time. safe territory is easy profit, everyone knows this. unless if you think all anime suffers from this now, in which case you are wrong and/or jaded.

Quote
ghibli is one of the few exceptions to this trend but i don't feel they're consistent enough to be a good basis for this, and they still largely follow a formula aimed at a specific culture and don't do as well with other audiences who are not familiar with it

disney is incredibly simple and follow stereotypes to the point where they can be accused of racism but in most cases it is recognizable enough, that isn't to say that i enjoy or give a shit about every disney movie but rather that they're watchable at any time and many of them have aged quite well, which is pretty important since most movies become obsolete more quickly if they're made for the times rather than being timeless (which is why none of the current hollywood AAA-pigshit will be worth preserving in the future)

that isn't to say that ghibli (as the most prominent example) isn't trying to do the same thing, both they and disney have varying degrees of success but ghibli restricts itself by largely following japanese culture, customs and history, and has even received a lot of flak in japan for this with "grave of the fireflies" and more recently "the wind rises" because it SOILED THE IMAGE OF GREAT JAPANESE EMPIRE even though the movies themselves were quite nicely done in a lot of ways

how does disney not restrict itself to american culture? surely you must realize that even though disney makes attempts at forays into other cultures, they inject american culture into everything they do so their audiences can relate. honestly, i'd rather watch a foreign film that is true to itself and miss a few references than be given a false image and stereotypes of what disney thinks another culture would be like.

Quotethe reason i like a lot of 80s shows in particular is because at the time they were afraid to experiment with different imagery, even if the shows themselves were practically garbage with no lasting sustainability (omfg silverhawks) they're still very recognizable and contributed a great deal to different genres. incidentally, this was also around the time american animation industry started seriously outsourcing their shit to cheaper studios abroad, which could explain this temporary shift, with many of my favorite shows being animated in japan, but with largely more of an international appeal

again, this is a baseline for creative expression, and putting it into context. there was a lot of new stuff going on in that time period, which led to the 80s being very colorful and the 90s being very consistent by riding on the back of the earlier wave of new imagery and expression, but which dissipated in the 2000s and is now largely supplanted by lots of more generic and boring stuff which tends towards being either being really WACKY and dumb (adventure time as a prominent example), remakes of older shows (mlp, tmnt, etc...) or knock-off anime 'because that probably sells'

you are making the easy mistake of believing that an era of animation before you were even born was a better time just because the classics from that era have survived in pop culture. had you been alive back then and observing the world of animation like you do now you would not feel the same - just as much garbage was coming out back then that comes out now. but garbage is soon forgotten, like the garbage of today will be forgotten 30 years from now. and there will be people in the 2040's who will probably think the same things about the 2010's that you think about the 80's.

Quotethis is an on-going phase which imo won't end until something drastical happens to uproot the entire animation industry, because it exists as a luxury just like video games and art in general

i disagree that art and animation is a "luxury", luxuries are things that can only be enjoyed by a select few. art and animation can be enjoyed by everyone. if you look at human history, art is a core part of human expression - in many ways it is a human necessity.

Guuuuuuuys we're supposed to be working togetherrrr.

Quote from: Sinitron on February 26, 2014 04:12 AM
ghibli restricts itself by largely following japanese culture

Kiki's Delivery Service and Porco Rosso are obvious counter-examples. Laputa, Howl's, Earthsea and Arrietty also even though they're more fantasy than magical realism. Also, Miyazaki and Takahata both worked on World Masterpiece Theater in the early days when it was pretty much exclusively adapting Scandinavian/Mediterranean folktales and children's books (Heidi, Dog of Flanders, Marco, Perrine, Anne of Green Gables, etc). Heck, Panda! Go, Panda! was originally supposed to be a Pippi Longstocking adaption before Astrid Lindgren put the nix on it (which she would later regret).

And I would argue Japan's commitment to cultural heritage is one reason why their industry is still burgeoning (or even exists for that matter). I haven't seen any Norwegian animated movies (apparently Peter and the Wolf was a Norwegian co-production), but don't you think it would be important that they convey a sense of national heritage, in the absence of a filmable landscape? You strike me as a fairly nationalistic person, but I can't blame you. I envy Scandinavia's strong cultural backbone. I never got anything like that where I was born (in the middle of fucking Hollywood).

Quote from: rtil on February 26, 2014 06:04 AM
surely you must realize that even though disney makes attempts at forays into other cultures, they inject american culture into everything they do so their audiences can relate.

Mulan would be exhibit A. Aladdin, Pocahontas, Hunchback of Notre Dame, Hercules (best), Princess and the Frog, Song of the South, etc. are also offenders but Mulan is the worst. Honestly fuck that movie. But really it's inherently problematic when a company adapts and Americanizes fairy-tales or novels from older cultures.

Also I have the perfect plan to save western animation but more on that later.

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Quote from: BluPhoenix on February 26, 2014 05:42 PM
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Why has this user posted this?

please remove JasonDog

Dear Sweetlegs.

There was a great dearth in discussion before I signed up, the state of the place was far too homogenous in anime lovers and those who communicate via the language of image macros. I thought I brought some diversity.

If the very people I came to contribute to want me gone, well then I clearly have no reason to be here, if it so then I will go.

You won't see me again.
-Jason

so dramatic!

his sacrifice was not in vain

Note: Jasondog died on the way back to his home planet.

Quote from: zwimmy on February 28, 2014 11:06 PM
Note: Jasondog died on the way back to his home planet.

2D animation is saved.

Great job everyone.