starcraft 2

[Sinitron]

ghosts already require tons more work work/luck to actually counter casters though unless they are clumped up and out in the open

HT require babysitting but aside from ghosts most things you can feedback are kind of big, even infestors

snipe is kind of garbage because using it takes up all your time and is kind of so-so in a larger engagement

i'm still gonna go biomech with ghosts whenever i can get 4 bases now and throw in ghosts because i am low on gas and have excess minerals anyway

[rtil]

they're not THAT hard to use if you research cloak. vs zerg, just snipe the overseer instantly and the only way the zerg can deal with them now is to manage to land fungals on their cloaked outlines. they are tiny, have more HP and can be hard to spot. let's not pretend they're not the best caster in the game now

[Sinitron]

sniping and cloaking at the same time is not beneficial to the effectiveness of either

[cipher]

I think you're forgetting about nukes. Constant nuking late game is one of the most annoying things ever.

In general I don't see what there is to complain about, ghosts are one of my favorite units in the game because of the way they work. Those kind of micro intensive units make the game less boring too. If you just had to A move everything and sit back and watch it would get dull


Also a few ghosts with full energy can snipe the hell out of a few ultralisks (or maybe broods/colossus if you're lucky), but aside from that yeah I guess it's not great in big engagements. However in early (small) engagements you can snipe out marines and other units to help even it up. Although you're screwed against a bunch of lings if you don't have cloak

[sev]

i think it'd be cool if more terrans nuked, yeah. i often forget nuke exists.

[psi43]

i think it'd be cool if more terrans nuked, yeah. i often forget nuke exists.

imo it's kind of a waste of money unless you're very certain it's gonna work (like hitting an expansion that just got up and doesn't have any detection or something)

[rtil]

i've seen some very amazing nuke play in pro games. can't really hurt to build a nuke if you're investing in ghosts

[psi43]

٩(๏̯͡๏)۶

[Sinitron]

if somebody can constantly nuke they are already way ahead since nukes cost 100/100 and you pretty much need cloak

it's okay for busting tank lines but P and Z are so mobile that even attempting to nuke their armies is kind of pointless since they can just run out of the way, and they replenish their armies faster anyway

i'm not forgetting about nukes... they're just rarely practical, just like snipe, the gas is usually better spent on upgrades unless it's TvT tank wars or you're nuking an expo (and targeting a mineral node of course so it's harder to spot)

sniping broodlords can theoretically work since they don't have THAT much health but it's a HUUUUGE waste of APM since you have to spam R over and over, while you could be stimming/kiting/pulling your dick or whatever, so the benefits are nullified or work to the detriment of the terran player

you need a bunch of snipes to kill something and each snipe is 25 energy which is why sniping and cloaking at the same time is kind of crappy, it might be worth it to throw some EMPs on stray casters but definitely not for snipe

if you run your ghosts around and just happen to stumble upon some broods in transit then pfff yeah what the hell, if it's not a huge engagement it's not a big deal, but the ghosts are probably going to die and it takes a while to replenish their numbers as their cost and build time is considerable

also ravens are the best casters, not ghosts

[Sinitron]

i don't even bother researching cloak when getting ghosts and banshees most of the time because it depends so much on energy, and with the ghost in a supporting role for the main army (EMP) and the banshees for DPS or worker harass (workers don't fire back), it's not a huge benefit and the cost is not always justified

[cipher]

Simultaneous (2+) nukes on bases is more annoying than anything though. While also being potentially able to get workers, if you're against terran or toss chances are you'll be able to kill a bunch of depots/pylons.

[rtil]

i think you severely underestimate the utility of ghosts, especially with cloak. you don't need to be way ahead to be mixing ghosts with your army, you just have to have strong macro. once you've saturated your natural you should have a very strong economy, enough to start fueling a tier 3 unit to go with your army. i have had terrans go mass ghost against me with cloak, and it's definitely something worth researching, at least vs zerg, because our mobile detector is so easy to kill and expensive to reproduce.

but in the end it's based on personal preference. really, any player that's good enough can make any unit composition work. it just sounds like you haven't seen anyone use ghosts to their full potential.

[Sinitron]

No no no, you have to be way ahead to constantly nuke stuff because nukes are expensive, ghosts are fine in certain situations but more than anything they are anti-casters, not a very viable caster by themselves unless someone is going MMMG against protoss, and the research is pricy early on for the energy upgrade, cloak AND nukes. If they're just a supplement to the main army cloaking is kind of a dubious choice to spend resources on since money will be tight until a third and fourth base is taken. For multiple nukes you also need more ghost academies, which also cost money. They also take a while to produce and occupy tech lab barracks longer. Ravens are a much stronger and reliable choice in most scenarios because of their aerial mobility, detection and PDDs.

[rtil]

i wasn't talking about constantly nuking stuff, i was talking about having ghosts in your army. raven upgrades are just as pricey as ghost upgrades, in fact iirc they're more expensive, especially from the unit cost. yeah, they're probably better, but they can't cloak. as far as detection goes, most terrans i see just put up missile turrets everywhere and have scans to spare in the late game.

[Sinitron]

I think you're forgetting about nukes. Constant nuking late game is one of the most annoying things ever.

if somebody can constantly nuke they are already way ahead since nukes cost 100/100 and you pretty much need cloak

you don't need to be way ahead to be mixing ghosts with your army, you just have to have strong macro.

^confusing messages


anyway no you're overestimating the value of ghosts, they're a nice addition but not really a requirement in any matchup but TvP because of EMPs universal effectiveness against protoss shields - snipe is a lousy ability at best and cloaking has limited, if cool, usage

mass ghosts is mainly for pissing around

also the reason people spam missile turrets everywhere is because they either go pure factory or heavy upgrades and don't have to spare the gas for ravens

plus its brood war style (hardcore)

[rtil]

missile turrets also negate burrow movement

EMP is also very effective vs queens and infestors, and snipe is effective vs many zerg units, really every unit except the roach, corruptor and zergling (because it's a waste)

i'm just saying that as a high diamond zerg player, i have seen terrans use ghosts very effectively and convincingly vs zerg. it's definitely not the "go-to" anti-zerg unit, but it works. i have seen a small army of ghosts quickly rape entire fleets of brood lords, infestors, banelings and queens.

[Sinitron]

Nah, it's mainly against Protoss because in BW Science Vessels were expensive and flimsy (just like Ravens!) and knocking them out of the sky with a few Scouts was pretty easy, leaving Dark Templar free to roam everywhere they'd please and lay waste to any army. It didn't do shit against Zerg since there were no tunneling units. Also, in SC2, protoss doesn't spread creep all over the fucking place, and turrets halt 2 of their 3 tech paths (colossus/air).

EMP is effective against anything with energy yeah, just like feedback, but unlike feedback it can't actually ever kill anything, and fungal growth also reveals cloaked units like EMP and disables any abilities, but you can actually spot cloaked T/P units in transit and stop them, unlike Z units which leave no trail while tunneling. HT drops with feedback is probably a sillier way to deal with queens.

Snipe is a borderline junk ability which is sort of good in small scale encounters (ESPECIALLY against Roaches and Marauders since Ghosts don't do bonus damage to them and it takes out a solid chunk of their health) but is a huge waste of time later on, the exception being sniping harassing Mutalisks, because you need to spam R over and over all the fucking time against single units with multiple ghosts, while you could be focus-firing the tanks, kiting with stimmed marines and hellions, etc etc... EMP is really good. It's the reason people get Ghosts. Snipe just sucks and has that awful 'ghetto' silencer sound. Nobody wants to fucking listen to that shit when they can EMP instead for a big bright flash of blue light and see a bunch of faggot stalkers without shields ripe for the picking.

[rtil]

yeah emp isn't as good as feedback, but in turn, the ghost has more abilities and is faster than a high templar. it's give and take

and i agree, i hate the sound of the sniper round, but i understand why it's there

[sev]

Ghosts add a cool extra micro aspect to Terran. Terran units are generally really efficient by themselves, they don't really need an all-purpose damage spell like storm or fungal, but the other races' spells are specifically harmful and oftentimes necessary to kill Terran units, so having EMP in there is useful, and as it's very quick to cast as well as being aoe, it's really useful. The fact that it pretty much is an auto psi-storm to all protoss units is sort of a bonus. Anti-casting is highly undervalued imo

[Crabarms]

Been using lings/banelings/mutas vs protoss and been able to hold pretty well to stalker heavy armies and able to take out a few collosi. Probably wont work in higher leagues if they are smart enough to get more zealots and archon as well as HT but very seldom do I see it or they refuse to adapt. Its also nice for when I do upgrade I can skip spine/acid attack upgrade and t3 units wont be gimped. If I see an early twilight counsel I would probably go roach and get an overseer. But other then that could you say there something wrong with skipping roach hydras ?