National identity issues (rant/discuss)

emanhattan · February 13, 2012 09:22 AM

(while on the apology for slavery/ white shame thread i read sintrons comment and was gonna reply there but i thought this was a matter interesting enough to be discussed separatelly, so im just cutting and pasting what i was gonna say there)

Quote from: Sinitron on February 5, 2012 12:05 PM
the problem is that people distinguish themselves as 'white' or 'black' instead of just 'american'

it's the same problem here with the fucking pakis and shit who are hell-bent on clinging onto their NATIONAL IDENTITY

even though that was just you half making a point/half joking around it does make me think about something. National identity. do you think national identity can be a negative thing? do you guys believe yourselves to be VERY attached to your country independently of which country that may be?

youre about to read something potentially offensive about america and the world blah blah plah please cope wth me for a moment.

theres something that has been brewing in my mind ever since i moved to the u.s.
i believe you unintentionally revealed something in the middle of that post. let me explain . when i read your "white" or "black" comment for some reason i exptected to read "just human" at the end. but you said "american" instead which i think is an interesting thing because similar associations are said in movies and written articles. why "america"? its just an interesting choice of words, why couldnt you say something related to mankind i guess. "medicines for the good of america"/ "better security for america", the anihilation of those who seek to destroy freedom", these kind of comments in media make me think there is an tendency to feel separated from the world in some sense, like if the existance of the united states country could be completely isolated from the rest of the world. a moment afterwards you say "pakis and shit" have national identity issues. but there are some people in the united states who believe national identity is wrong for every other country except for their own. ive met some people who fit this descrption and most of them live in... places that have no multicultural values, so maybe its wrong of me to make this connection.? Am i crazy for thinking this? wtf

[spoiler]I mean maybe im being a fucking shithead by saying this because i have no right to criticize the way people think ON A COUNTRY I WASNT BORN IN
a[/spoiler]

And the reason im bringing this subject up is because I think maybe not american nationalism specifically but national identity in general is a dangerous thing because it feeds superiority complexes.
I come from a third world country where national identity is hammmered into our minds since the beginning of education, theres love for the country and doing whats best for mexicans and how we got awesome history and really cool archeoligical discoveries in our land and all that shit and its just beautiful. it makes people feel pretty. BUT. along the way there are also certain things that you are made to believe about how america is the devil and how other south american countries are the cause of our grief and how europeans are also assholes and there might also be a race factor to this thats not as present in the united states because in mexico the difference in race is not as notorious as in the u.s. So to kids in mx sometimes being introduced to other cultures/races feels awkward. and and I mean FUCK so there seems to be like this silent agreement we all make to alienate everyone whos not like us? can there be nationalism without feelings of resentment/difference/hate towards others?

im not going to get into other countries because i dont have enough information... but I think what im trying to say with all of this is that I believe nationalism is silly because there wil be a day when AMERICA or MEXICO or PAKISTAN or SPAIN or CANADA or JAPAN.... wont exist anymore. Its something ive been thinking about. will the national borders as we know today sill exist in 100 years? 500? 1000? (provided the world doesnt end which it fucking wont). so if the world keeps changing, what is the point of carrying the flag (at least in your heart) of a country if it will eventually stop existing? or hey maybe im wrong maybe itll exist forever

i just want people to disagree on this. Ill probably look like a fool with the arguments im making or lose but thats fine. i guess thats the point of the discussion i want to see what YOU think so maybe ill change my mind to a more reasonable point of view.

so what do you think?

emanhattan · February 13, 2012 09:32 AM

p.s i have to say something because it wasnt very clear in my rant. what i said makes it sound like i think americans are racist?.. which is not true at all. i have never felt even slightly harassed here in the west coast and people have been super nice to me. im a lot more likely to be harassed where i come from than anywhere around here or anywhere else for that matter. I also dont think any member of this forum is even slightly racist or has stigmas against other races/countries im just trying to find out your views about the world as you see it.

rtil · February 13, 2012 10:25 AM

national identity is stupid. you had no control over where you were born , there's no reason to be proud of it

emanhattan · February 13, 2012 10:43 AM

basically

trent bortknob · February 13, 2012 08:40 PM

i agree with rtil. i feel no attachment to any country, just to other people. the only reason the idea of living outside of america seems remotely troubling is because i don't know very many people at all who live outside of the US, and i'm only proficient in english as a language.

trent bortknob · February 13, 2012 08:43 PM

i feel like if a group of about 10 of my closest friends/relatives decided to move with me to a different country and all live in the same general vicinity, i probably wouldn't have a lot of problems. sure, the culture would be different, and i'd probably have to learn a new language, but as long as i had friends or family or something i don't think it would be too hard to adjust.

Sinitron · February 13, 2012 09:21 PM

my country is the best we will crush your country with glaciers (our WMD answer to the icelandic supervolcanos) fuck they're melting

sev · February 13, 2012 10:05 PM

as long as a country i'd move to doesn't suck and i did my homework on it before heading over, it'd be dandy

Kött · February 13, 2012 10:47 PM

I don't think there's anything wrong with being proud of your nationality. Sure, we cannot decide where we are born... We also have (as individuals that is) little power to change our country. But I can still be happy about living in a country whose regime doesn't brainwash or threaten its population in order to excercise power. I can still be enthusiastic about art or scientific achievements made in my country. I can still be amazed by the history of my country and my ancestors. And finally, I can still be proud to live in a modern, tolerant and open-minded community. Therefore national pride is nothing bad to me...
If anything, I often feel annoyed that people in Germany condemn the concept without a second thought merely because of a speciffic section of this country's past because they are afraid of being connected with the wrong ideology and I am anything but a racist or a nazi.

The issue about being black or white, however, is an etnic one and that is an entirely different discussion.

Sinitron · February 14, 2012 03:46 PM

hitler was a pretty handsome dude he even combed his hair how often do you see krauts do shit like that yo

what if they had WON and the japanese had been going apeshit for german tech instead of american garbage?? we'd have rocket-powered volkswagens and nano swastikas in the skies, omg

ZennyPLUS · February 14, 2012 07:57 PM

Quote from: Kott on February 13, 2012 10:47 PM
I don't think there's anything wrong with being proud of your nationality. Sure, we cannot decide where we are born... We also have (as individuals that is) little power to change our country. But I can still be happy about living in a country whose regime doesn't brainwash or threaten its population in order to excercise power. I can still be enthusiastic about art or scientific achievements made in my country. I can still be amazed by the history of my country and my ancestors. And finally, I can still be proud to live in a modern, tolerant and open-minded community. Therefore national pride is nothing bad to me...
If anything, I often feel annoyed that people in Germany condemn the concept without a second thought merely because of a speciffic section of this country's past because they are afraid of being connected with the wrong ideology and I am anything but a racist or a nazi.

The issue about being black or white, however, is an etnic one and that is an entirely different discussion.

Quote from: Sinitron on February 14, 2012 03:46 PM
hitler was a pretty handsome dude he even combed his hair how often do you see krauts do shit like that yo

what if they had WON and the japanese had been going apeshit for german tech instead of american garbage?? we'd have rocket-powered volkswagens and nano swastikas in the skies, omg

If weren't for the nationalist attitudes of WWII, I'm sure the outcome of the war would have been much different. What if the Allies had the same perspective as eman or rtil? National identity is part of what drove these men to fight, to protect THEIR home and THEIR country. It's that sort of determination that drives them to do their very best. The same could be said for the men fighting on the side of the Axis.

There is a distinction between BLACK and WHITE because these two groups of people are different, culturally, ethnically and socially. To merely lump every group of people into a brownish poo pot and call it "America" is not ideal. America was never a "melting pot" as much as history and society would like for us to believe. Rather, America has become something like a salad you'd order at Panera Bread: little bits and piece of your salad all mixed together, some parts of the salad are on top while others are on the bottom, altogether, they make one delicious salad that you'll enjoy.

And thus, this salad was called America. This analogy could probably be applied to nations with mixed populations and cultures, for example, Canada.

rtil · February 14, 2012 08:08 PM

Quote from: ZennyPLUS on February 14, 2012 07:57 PM
If weren't for the nationalist attitudes of WWII, I'm sure the outcome of the war would have been much different. What if the Allies had the same perspective as eman or rtil? National identity is part of what drove these men to fight, to protect THEIR home and THEIR country. It's that sort of determination that drives them to do their very best. The same could be said for the men fighting on the side of the Axis.

well...let's get something straight, here. america didn't want to have ANYTHING to do with WWII until the japanese attacked US. we were NOT interested in sending our shit across two different oceans until someone dragged us into it.

i consider myself a citizen of the earth more than i do a citizen of the united states. now what happens in the united states affects me more than it does people who dont, but what i mean is that i'm more proud to be a person than i am a united states citizen. that probably doesnt make sense but whatever

ZennyPLUS · February 14, 2012 08:22 PM

Quote from: rtil on February 14, 2012 08:08 PM
Quote from: ZennyPLUS on February 14, 2012 07:57 PM
If weren't for the nationalist attitudes of WWII, I'm sure the outcome of the war would have been much different. What if the Allies had the same perspective as eman or rtil? National identity is part of what drove these men to fight, to protect THEIR home and THEIR country. It's that sort of determination that drives them to do their very best. The same could be said for the men fighting on the side of the Axis.
well...let's get something straight, here. america didn't want to have ANYTHING to do with WWII until the japanese attacked US. we were NOT interested in sending our shit across two different oceans until someone dragged us into it.

i consider myself a citizen of the earth more than i do a citizen of the united states. now what happens in the united states affects me more than it does people who dont, but what i mean is that i'm more proud to be a person than i am a united states citizen. that probably doesnt make sense but whatever

Individualism over national identity, ok, I can get behind that. Also, just because the USA didn't want a part in the war, doesn't mean they weren't pushed into by the attack on Pearl Harbor. My point was that once the American forces joined the Allies, they most likely had a strong sense of loyalty to their homeland which helped them fight on in the war. The fact that Americans were, at the time of isolation during the Great Depression, wanted no part in the war is just another example of nationalist pride. "After all, it is THEIR war and not OURS."

rtil · February 14, 2012 08:27 PM

well yeah i think it's fairly normal for most people to have a sense of national identity, it would be odd if we didnt retaliate to the attack on pearl harbor, and i'm not saying it's wrong that we did. there are some things i'm proud of our nation for, but more things i'm really embarrassed about honestly.

ZennyPLUS · February 14, 2012 08:39 PM

Quote from: rtil on February 14, 2012 08:27 PM
well yeah i think it's fairly normal for most people to have a sense of national identity, it would be odd if we didnt retaliate to the attack on pearl harbor, and i'm not saying it's wrong that we did. there are some things i'm proud of our nation for, but more things i'm really embarrassed about honestly.

You and me both, rtil.